Honest question about options

[ReplicA]

So like many people I'm out of work. I've been trying to find work for a long time now, with minimal success. Everyone I talk to says my modeling skills are top notch, but my texturing is really holding me back. I tend to agree with them, texturing has always been a weak point of mine. I've been working on my texturing for years, with little signs of progress at all. I've read all the tutorials, I've gone through all the sites, watched the videos, everything I can think of to help my textures, I've done it. And I still can't get any better at it.

Now there's several artists out there that only do modeling, like high res, low poly, uv's, and map rendering. I know that greatly limits my options, but since I'm going nowhere right now, shouldn't I toss the parts that everyone says are holding me back?

Anyway, if you read all that, thanks. And I'm really not trying to treat GA as my personal blog, I'm more interested in looking for real help here. It's getting more and more difficult to push on like this.

[FluxAmbassador]

You're in a tough situation. On the one hand, excising the weak spots from your reel will show you in the best possible light to a potential employer. On the other hand, you have to take into serious consideration that generalists are coming back into vogue. Employers, especially in this economy, want more bang for their buck.

The bigger studios treat production like it's an assembly line, where each person has a very specific job. For them, that works since they can hire the absolute best people in their field, kinda like the Ocean's 11 of game development.

Unfortunately, everybody wants to work at an EA, Nintendo, or Capcom. Logically, that means that those job openings will probably see far more applications than the average small studio.

Again, logically, the smaller studios have to assign more value to you if you have a wider range of skills. Hiring you then becomes an issue of how cost effective that decision is. If you can do more, they'll assign you more to do. If you can do less, they'll hire somebody who can do more than you.

So, as I said, you're in a tough spot. Specializing means that you might fit in at a bigger studio, but you'll face more competition in the resume stacks. Generalize and you'll face a certain type of scrutiny because your entire skill set will be put on trial.

If you cant to be a good generalist then you'll have to take some more proactive steps. Texturing isn't easy. I know that you say that you practice, but maybe you need to take a new approach. Do what sculptors do. Do studies. Say, "Today, I'm going to texture the sh** out of stone." and only do that. Don't do wood. Don't do cloth. Just stone. Get photos. Study the heck out of it. Do your best to replicate what you see, even if there's no new model to go along with it. Then, the next outing, say, "Metal, you're my b***h today." and do just that. ZBrushers do that all of the time and they're always better off for it.

Alternatively, if all you can do is model, there might still be work for you in other industries, such as film. Granted, you'd have to polish those high poly skills like nobody's biz, but there's always work at VFX studios. That's a business that's still in a state of growth. I'm not saying that you'll have less competition, but that's another avenue for you to explore.

[Beartastic]

In my experience, most junior artists spend time doing lots of texturing and enviro work, and it's usually the experienced/seniors who do sculpts. I don't know if that's everywhere, but it seems to me that traditional art and texturing skills are the keys to entry. Then again, a lot of people I've seen get looked over are incredible artists, better than the people interviewing them. Part of it is dumb luck and having a friend on the inside who can tell you when to apply.

I seriously wouldn't give up trying to learn to texture. Imagine your current sculpting skills, but with a badass texture. You can do it, just whatever you're doing hasn't worked yet. Have you thought of doing a texture thread? I think you'd learn pretty quickly if you made a thread and just textured stuff -- quickly modelled props, and characters you've already got sitting around. The feedback would be tuned to suit you, so I think you'd get better pretty fast.

[Hazardous]

Hey man,

This is all my oppinion so take it with a grain of salt.

You are a great modeller, and your textures are NOT as bad as your making it sound like, your ALMOST there dude.

But you HAVE to make yourself a nice clean folio, and present your characters in a nice easy to read format for employers. A 1-click style 'punch the art director in the face' page that screams 'heres who i am as an artist'

I only found your blog and while its cool, a black blog I found is never really the best way to present your work, if anything it forces folks to go scrolling through everything to see what your made of.

Secondly if you feel like textures is letting you down then I suggest doing foundation studies, remove yourself from the idea that you want to get better at making textures, and focus instead on learning about how light effects form, learn about how in realworld situations warm lights produce cool shadows and cool lights produce warm shadows, all traditional values that even some simple studies of understanding will be enlightening and you keep those ideas and apply them to whatever texture you will be creating.

I think the technical side of texturing, youre already successful at. You know how to do, its just the lack of foundation knowledge thats not coming through and propelling your textures to greatness. I'll just add also that NO amount of photo manipulation will ever help you learn about those foundational things. However those foundational things will make your photo manipulation style textures even better.

Good luck man! You can do it!

[ReplicA]

Thanks for the replies, all.

Flux: Yes, that's the rub right there. I could toss the textures, and just do sculpting, low poly, uv's and map rendering, which are all well and good, and could land me a job. BUT, having texture skills helps out even more. Exactly. It's kind of a tough situation for me.

MBT: I didn't mean to give the impression I'd be giving up on trying to learn textures, more that I'd be paying more attention to doing more modeling. I'll continue doing texturing in the background, for friends and such to see, but keep it out of my folio. That was what I was meaning anyway. I have not thought about doing texture studies, actually. I've always felt I need a subject to texture, so I model it out, then texture it to the best of my abilities, and it just falls short. But I'll give that some consideration for sure, thanks. :)

Hazardous: thanks for the kind words, that actually means a lot to me. As far as my folio, that blog kinda is my folio. I have absolutely zero knowledge about making a site, not just how best to set it up, but how to set it up at all. It seems to be one of those subjects that goes right through my skull, and I have no idea what I'm doing with it. BUT, I guess I don't have much of a choice anymore. I'll look up some step by step total handholding tutorials for site setup.

About your texturing suggestions, I'm not really getting what you mean. Are you meaning more "painting" fundamentals? If not, then I don't know what you mean, sorry. could you link me to an example?

I really want to get better at texturing. I just seem to have plateaued, and don't know how to get better. Everything I've tried has fallen short. But I haven't tried texturing studies, and I haven't tried a texturing only thread either... Now that those have been suggested, I feel like a total n00b for not doing it.... I got a subject, a female model I really like, but the textures are god awful. I'll post that in a few.


Anyway, thanks a LOT for the replies. I'll be focusing on this for a while to come. This and lighting for presentation, something else I need to work on, I hear.

[BigJohn]

Another problem that I'm seeing now in general is that we don't have any experience, and you'd think that would make us perfect candidates for junior positions. And yet, I can't seem to find those here in the US.

It seems a huge chunk of those low-level jobs have moved overseas to outsourcing companies.

So where does that leave us? I guess the old advice of Keep Practicing still applies, sure. That will never change. But it seems that as time is moving forward there are actually less jobs, and more competition for the remaining ones.

I suppose we could blame the economy for that. But I'm not a big fan of blaming external factors for my own failures. Feels like there's gotta be something I can do, and there has to be room for me somewhere in this industry. Just not sure how to get there...

Anyways, that was a bit of a rant hehe :)

As far as I'm concerned, all I can do is make more art, and improve myself more. Which is what I want to do anyways. BTW, I'm having tons of fun with Polypainting right now.

So I guess it's not all bad. Still doing what we love doing. Just not getting paid for it :)

[Josh Singh]

I would like to chime in,
When I was first starting out my art sucked so hard, But I had to support my self so I sold used cars, and worked at a telemarketing crap job. Then I would come home a and work with the max tutorials, sketch, plan my next character. Dude you have to just keep going. Reading your post I think you have a firm grasp on where you are artistically, and that is very important. Keep going man you have potential. you just need to show your texture diffuse a bit of love and learn some presentation tricks. Once you have around 5 knockout pieces you will be ready for the job hunt. It's really competitive out there, especially with all the pros who have been laid off recently. You really need to up your game if you want to break in.

[crazyfool]

jobs are like gold dust at the moment, and junior character artists is even worse. lots of people start off doing something else like environments and VFX and then later moving into characters by letting the company know they are interested or just branching out.

if you are having texturing issues I would suggest making a wii spec character. 5-6k tris, 1024 or 512 diffuse map, and you can choose to paint it directly or use zbrush and bake lighting using GI Joe plug ins or turtle etc and then painting in your textures ontop. Thats how we did them at my old job, you would be surprised how good they come out. Or do some environment work.

your texturings far from being bad though man, I think you just need to make some complicated characters with lots of accessories and stuff

[LowRez]

In simple terms, The way the industry "thinks" is a little like this in a lot of companys

Character Artist = Film star
Environment Artist = TV actor

Reasons for perception are the ratio of each type. You need alot more environment artists in most games. Also look in most game forums everyone does Characters as they're "cooler"

As such most junior character jobs go to "superb juniors" as in the best of the best of the best kids who are creating next gen characters all the time at an astounding rate. being good isn't quite good enough to jump straight in you have to be exceptional. OR they're people who have moved into games as an enviroment artist and worked hard on their characters and gradually moved or jumped on an internal opening when given the chance.

Alot of people will say "follow your dreams, if you want to be a character artist be one" blah blah blah but Im more of a realist get a job which pays you for creating art and introduces you to the games industry pipelines and dev cycle. Continue practicing and make the shift in the future or when you move companys etc.

work on some enviros and get applying again. You'll get there, your works decent mostly and some are good pieces and practice and variety will get you there.

Or absolutly hammer your characters, and I mean aim for the best. As a rule of thumb If it won't place in the top 20 of dominance wars then you need to keep practicing tweaking polishing.

Sorry if this sounds harsh (I have had a few beers so may have been more hard talking than intended)



Also You say you have a female character that has god awful textures? are you posting it on forums for critique and advice? If not why not? you don't need to get everything perfect before asking people what they think, the earlier your feedback the easier it will be to find where your going wrong or get pointers.

[ReplicA]

Again, thanks for the comments.

BigJohn: I agree, it's aggravating to say the least. I've been at this 3d thing for 8 years, almost 9 now. It can be hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel when you've been kicked around for so long. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Yeah, you got the job, just gotta do some paperwork/wait a week/give us a couple days to finish "*" and we'll get you set up." Only to never hear from them again. I email, I ask what's up, all the stuff you're supposed to do, and nothing. It's annoying.

Josh Singh: thanks for the encouraging words. And it's looking like I don't have much of a choice right now, but to get that crappy job doing stuff I hate, so I can live, and do my art. Hopefully I can find one of them, maybe it'll help me appreciate game art a bit more. :)

CrazyFool: I'll definitely be keeping a wii res object/character in mind. For now, I think I need a "win" or two before I go pushing myself to straight "paint" a texture. And thanks for saying my textures are far from bad. :)

LowRez: That really is something I've been thinking about lately, getting into background stuff, and props. I've got some experience with it, and I can texture a lot of those kinds of surfaces a bit easier than i can a character.

About my female character with awful textures.... I've been trying to find a way to show it without feeling so embarrassed about the textures, but I really can't. Guess I'll just have to bite the bullet, and post it as is.

Oh, and no, you don't sound harsh in the slightest, LowRez. :)

thanks for the comments, and encouraging words.

[zeke3d]

its tough out there right now, not to mention getting a job takes timing, and there is an art form to it as well, presentation, where you reside, experience etc.... keep plugging away at it.

[ReplicA]

This is gonna be a general "I need crits on my textures" thread for me, not solely for this one model. I'll probably throw in some environmental stuff as well. But here's the link if you feel like you wanna help me out. http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12870

[BigJohn]

Just a quick question I wanna add:

Does anyone have any experience being an American going abroad to work at an outsourcing company? I'm talking mainly about the ones in Canada, but also in Europe as well.

Is that even a viable strategy? Do they accept Americans there?

[Melrick]

Hey guys, you will have to forgive my ignorance, but for putting together an enviromental portfolio would you suggest doing a game level or putting together a page of objects? If it is a game level does it have to be done in a game engine or can it be done in Max?

Ya I spend most of my time working on my characters and not really any time looking into my environments. My mistake, but I alwasy wanted to be a Film star.

[Marcus Dublin]

Hey Replica, I know we talked a little before about some of this but I wanted to touch on some things that could potentially get you noticed and possibly hired. Hopefully the information in this post could help other artists who are in the same boat!

First off you have some good character pieces that show talent and competency, which is good! Unfortunately the character work also shows that you have a ways to go before competing on the same level as some of the pros in the industry. Trying to break in as a character artist isn’t impossible by any means but it requires a great deal of skill and a killer portfolio to convince art leads, and art directors on giving you a shot.

That said the other alternative route would be to get in as a prop / hard surface modeler. This is a great stepping-stone on getting into the industry and what's even better is that it doesn’t always require texture skills! One thing that’s missing from your portfolio are decent samples of this type of work, you have some cool shots of the finished props that were done for (Brothers in Arms) but no supplementary images highlighting your modeling skills. This makes it hard for people evaluating your work as to how you created the assets in question. Art leads want to see images of the high poly models, low poly models, UV texture sheets and or layout, and wire frame shots. Here’s a perfect example of the type of asset that I’m talking about and the way in which it’s presented from a modeling standpoint: http://adrianzamora.carbonmade.com/projects/75305

That being said the assets you have on display may still be under some sort of NDA or you weren’t giving permission to show them off just yet. Either way it would be “in your best interest” to start working on these type of assets in your spare time, this way you wont have to rely solely on the professional work to demonstrate your skill.

At this point and time having 6 to 8 high quality models ranging from complex weapons and vehicles to simple prop structures will get you more attention and possible employment than a handful of good characters ever would. Granted this doesn’t mean that you should ever stop giving up on your desire to be a professional character artist but the main goal for you right now is to get hired! Once you’re in everything else will fall into place with time and effort, trust me on this.

Lastly learning how to texture isn’t an overnight skill and requires years of practice and experience in order to be really proficient at it, especially when it comes to next-gen assets. This is a skill that you can learn from being self-taught and also from working around other artists in a professional environment, which is why it’s important to just “get in”.

In any case these are my thoughts on your situation and on a possible course of action for getting a gig, be it freelance;) or in house. Hopefully you’ll be able to take some of the advice given in this thread and turn it into something worthwhile.

Good luck man, I rooting for ya!:thumb:

[Mask_Salesman]

Hey Replica, I hit this during uni. But If you don't mind me saying I think the problem is your relying on normal maps way too much. You have beautiful sculpts don't get wrong but you shouldn't let it do all the work, makes it easy to get stuck on just block colours and overlayed materials.

My advice would be to do some stuff with no normals at all. Bake an AO from a Hi by all means tho. if you can make something completely hand painted, no texture library, bringing through the materials with just brushes and a keen eye.

One thing I keep inmind while texturing is the model Has to look good with just a diffuse. So I constantly switch between flat/normal spec etc.

Aside from sculpting I tend to do alot of low res heads for fun, inspired by Pior, Mathis, BenR etc.
I use 3d painting programs alot in that too, they helped me lvlup my texturing a great deal. Worth a try, plus they are mega fun.


I'm not as all that as my badly worded post may sound lol so take it as from someone who went through a similar patch. :p
Plus take heed to what everyone else mentioned in relation to junior jobs- look at my job lol, my portfolio is all characters yet I'm an Environment artist.

[ReplicA]

Wow, everyone, thanks :D That's a lot of awesome help you've given me. I would have replied earlier, but I just got back a little while ago.

Marcus: As always, you're help is immeasurable. I took your previous advice, but I wasn't clear on what to do with it after a while. But I think I'm getting it now. Also, I am going to be doing a lot of prop work. I've always found it rather easy to build most objects, and that might be the way for me to get work, which as you pointed out is the main goal. Again, massive amount of thanks, Marcus, I really just can't say that enough.

Mask_Salesman: That seems to be the advice I'm getting a lot, doing some straight texture painting, no normals, no AO, just painting in everything. I'm probably gonna use a crutch or two, like an ao, or normal map, to begin with, just so I can get some form of success to keep the eagerness to push for ward, going. And I'd just use it as a guideline, not an actual map. But there's gonna be a LOT of digital painting going on for me. And I'm gonna be re-watching those Jason Chan Massive Black videos I got a while back for simple inspiration, and really pay attention this time to how he handles brushes, and colors and such.

Titova87: First, I'm very glad to hear you've been watching my work, and even more glad I could help you out with yours. When I feel stuck, I do normally step back for a while, but then I just end up cursing the fact that I never do character designs before hand, and always just wing it. :) But stepping back, and trying the technical side is something I haven't thought about before. I always try and push the creative side (at least I like to think I do), instead.

So I think I got some really solid advice from everyone here, learn to paint, learn to paint textures, do some prop work/enviro stuff, and really push my models to the next level. Sounds to me like I got a crapton of work ahead of me :D Gotta focus on the prop stuff first, since that can get me hired faster, and as Marcus pointed out, it takes time to become a good texture artist. Unfortunately, I need work now, so I can't indulge in fantasies about spending all my time on learning texturing. But, on the plus side, I like prop work/enviro stuff, and I've always been pretty decent at it, so hopefully when I found out current gen specs for that kinda thing, I can really do some cool work.

Anyway, thanks a ton again everyone. You've really helped me out, pulled my ego out of the gutter, and kicked me in the butt to get working again. Expect more WIPs from me soon. ;)

[ReplicA]

So I'm looking into doing some props/background asset work, but this raises a couple of questions I've never really gotten.

Question 1: what would be some subjects to avoid when making a folio on props and such? Stuff that's just cliche, and art directors are tired of seeing.

Question 2: When I say props/background assets, I mean things like signs, furniture, sheds, that kinda stuff. Does that stuff fall under the "environment artist" position description, or is that something else entirely?

[FluxAmbassador]

When I say props/background assets, I mean things like signs, furniture, sheds, that kinda stuff. Does that stuff fall under the "environment artist" position description, or is that something else entirely?
Just my personal guess, but I'd think the stuff you mentioned would probably be environment stuff. I mean, you usually can't interact with it beyond destruction. You can't inventory it. In movies, props are usually those things which characters use. Stuff like guns, books, and so forth.

what would be some subjects to avoid when making a folio on props and such? Stuff that's just cliche, and art directors are tired of seeing.
Well, what are YOU tired of seeing? I'd think that stuff like crates, vespas, mini coops, & generic broadswords are all played out. Your portfolio is going to be one of a bazillion. Your props should stand out and be unique. I'd guess that a company also needs to know if you can do basic game prop stuff like handguns or whatever, but the less you can do to bore them to death the better.

That's just my take.

[zeke3d]

I would have to disagree, i would stick to the staples, pick the ones you see the most in games, a loading pallet, shipping container, crate, barrel etc. and make it the best one ever (if its not, you need to try harder). also note that just cause its not a character, doesn't mean it shouldn't have character. the new paradigm is all about sweet looking environments that look lived in and show character. rooms without trim either on the ceiling or floors will be the stuff of the last gen. hope that helps

[ReplicA]

That was quick!

Flux: I was thinking it was environmental artist stuff, but then I thought, the prop guys create the props, the enviro artists were the guys that put all the props in place, and made the level look lived in, with lighting, and all that technical stuff. So I have to ask.

On the good content for folio stuff, there's things I wanna make, like a door that would be in hell, with all kinds of crazy intricate carvings in it. There's an old style lantern/streetlight I'd like to make with, again, ornate, intricate stuff on it. but I'm also thinking zeke3d might be right, that I should have the staples everyone knows. And if I can make them look killer, then that would only help me look like a better artist? I don't know. I do know I don't want to make the prop artists equivalent of Space Marine #8437529655, or Orc #385624.

Aaaah, I'm gonna have to do a lot of research into this prop artist stuff.

Anyway, thanks for the quick replies. Tomorrow's gonna be jam packed with learning! :)

[FluxAmbassador]

I would have to disagree, i would stick to the staples, pick the ones you see the most in games,
A portfolio/reel is all about putting your best foot forward. The best of the best. Sticking to tried & true cliches may show that you can get the work done, but it can also hurt their initial perception of you. You only get one 1st impression.

Imagine that you're starting your own studio. You get two reels in the mail.

Reel #1 is full of the generic stuff. Barrels. Crates. Etc. It's all very well crafted.
Reel #2 is just as tightly put together and touches the same genres, but all of the props are more unique.

If you're the guy doing the hiring, which one is going to stick out in your mind the most? Now, suppose that you didn't get two reels. You actually got 200 ones to review. All reels being equal, quality-wise, I can guarantee you that the one that's going to be remembered most is the one that physically stands out as being different. Can you imagine wanting to hire a character artist and have to sort through 200 versions of the Hulk? :p

It's funny that this topic comes up, right now. I have an old (Sep `09) copy of 3D World sitting on my desk that addresses this issue. Since the issue is probably out of print by now, here are the tips offered by TruSim's Art Manager Jolyon Webb:


Five tips: game art
Showing work tailored to core skills in a games pipeline helps your portfolio stand out, advises Jolyon Webb.

1. Create drama
Many not-so-good portfolios are reasonable. The ones that catch the eye have a sense of drama. These images capture the crucial moment of an event or the most dramatic framing.

2. Show key disciplines
A game model only really succeeds when the mesh and the textures work well together to create a convincing whole. Artists who dhow that they can handle both modeling and texturing always stand out from those who only excel at either.

3. Use the right resolution
A surprising number of modeling portfolios show very little game resolution work. Do your homework and show your models at game resolution with sensibly sized textures that would run without lag on a moderately specced PC.

4. Mix things up
Don't only show robots or monsters. An outstanding portfolio shows characters, organic and mechanical objects, and environments. Demonstrating an array of, say, mid-1950s Russian fighter jet models makes you too specialised to employ easily.

5. Don't just do cartoons
Most showreels seem heavily biased towards cartoon-style animation. However, many more game projects require more realistic, unstylised animation. Any showreel with more natural movement is instantly noticeable.

What I'm saying is a mix of all of this. (#2 & #3) Of course, you must show that you know your fundamentals. You have to prove that you can get the job done. (#1) However, you also have to stand out from the pack.

I guess, at the end of the day, the guys reviewing these reels must feel like gynecologists. "I swear. If I have to see one more bajingo today I'm going to kill myself." :)

I remember phone interviewing for a now defunct game studio across country. This was years ago. I showed them what I thought was great. I did exactly what zeke3d suggested. My portfolio looked like a "greatest hits" of game art.

The first thing the woman said when she interviewed me was, "I'm looking at your stuff right now. Tell me what's so special about your work?" For the life of me, I had no f***ing idea. I was pleased to interview with them and even got two more phone interviews from within their studio, but I realized one thing. I had no good answer for her because there was nothing special about my folio back then. It was solid. Solid enough to get me 3 phone interviews, but it was 100% vanilla.

I do know the guy who did get the job. I won't name names, as he's occasionally on this forum and didn't exactly have a good experience with that company. However, I will say that his portfolio at the time was a fair lick more conceptually original looking than mine.