Venice environment wip

[Twindragon]

Ok here is what I have started on my Venice environment. The trim around the gondola needs to be thinner I think and I still need to add some finer details such as decorative details which I will add with zbrush. What do you guys think so far.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/gondola.jpg

[Matroskin]

hey, gondola looks good to me! Really good model so far. Will u post some wires later on?
Imo, it is better to start with general masses if u make an environment and not with detailed objects that u almost finalize as if u were making only them. Anyways, that is just my way I would do it :) It`s up to u to decide.

[Kwakkie]

Haha cool when I was in venice a few months back and I remember those exact same horse ornaments on the side being in the gondola I was in:D

[onelung]

coo! any concepts for your scene setup?

[Frozan]

hey looks pretty cool. yeah lets see what u might have in mind for a scene.

[Twindragon]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Matroskin - everything is going to start off high poly and I will be creating a low poly with normal maps for them. I've broken down most of the assets that I will be creating for the level. The gondola was one of the more detailed assets so I decided to start with it. I like to create the assets first so that I can detail the environment.

Kwakkie - thanks man those seahorse statues were hard to find reference for but I stumbled on a nice picture of one.

onelung - I don't have a concept drawn up yet I do have a plan though. The scene will have one bridge and a restaurant. I'm basically taking from different images in my reference and building a scene with that.

Frozan - The concept is on its way

[Marcus Dublin]

To be honest I don’t think you need any concepts for this task, I believe that a few reference photos should suffice. I’m really looking forward to seeing this project come to life though, good luck with it Twindragon.

[Twindragon]

marcus - Ill probably do what you did for the concept and reference for your Medusa model. I'll create a map where the main elements are and then figure out where the details would go using photo reference. atm its been slow going because of work and x mas on the way but today I managed to do a few asset models and tomorrow I will model a couple more or I might actually start to model the environment so I can post something a bit more exciting.

[Twindragon]

I finally have an update. So far I have a few high poly assets that I need to create the low poly for and texture. I also have some more details Ive added to the gondola.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/assets.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/gondola1.jpg

[Matroskin]

looks nice so far, man.
Since u will do normal from those meshes I would suggest adding a bit more distortions to the table cloth.

[Marcus Dublin]

I’m glad to see you making some headway on this; it’s all coming together one piece at a time. Keep em coming!

[Twindragon]

Ok I am in the process of modeling a building and ive been doing some tests with tileable textures and need help. I have an example of what I want to do.

As you can see from the picture provided I want to add a lot of variation to my building but I keep wondering how I will go about doing this. I thought doing thirding but the building isn't as simple as a bottom, middle and top area. Also the windows have a white boarder around them. How should I tackle this problem? with decals? Any ideas and help would be greatly appreciated.

other details will just be geometry like the shutters and windows etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/variation.jpg

[EricChadwick]

An industry vet explains how to use vertex blending to add bldg details. Check out the purdy pics.
http://boards.polycount.net/showpost.php?p=756818&postcount=18

Some solid construction advice in this thread, from another vet, one of the Gears of War enviro artists. http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?p=678052#post678052

[Twindragon]

This helps immensely, thank you Eric. I use XSI and I am guessing that using a weight map would be that same as the vertex blending. As well as using different clusters for the different uvs such as trim details etc. I will do some tests to see if I am on the right track.

[Twindragon]

here is what i have so far. Still a lot of details to add but it shouldn't take me too long to complete this building and move on to the next one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/building2.jpg

[Armanguy]

love what you got so far what 3d package are oyu using?

[butt_sahib]

im going to GUESS here....just filling the blanks here...i THINK he is using XSI.
The XSI "look" is very sexy :)

Looks great Twin, but finish it already :D

[Twindragon]

Armanguy - Thanks I am using xsi like butt_sahib said.

butt_sahib - Christmas has been pretty hectic and I haven't been able to work on it too much..but hopefully I will have a bit more to show. Ive been learning as I go along with using vertex blending and creating the right textures that blend properly.

[Kalango]

Hey man, this is looking nice so far.
I would say to rought the blend between the bricks and the building walls a bit more, cuz so far it looks like the wall paint is transparent.
Boat and prefabs are sexy xD keep it up.

[Twindragon]

Ok I am pretty much done the first building. except for plants. and maybe clothes lines. I will add those details when I have the whole canal made. I am starting on the second building and it should go by faster than the first.

Kalango - when you say I need to rough the blend between the bricks and buildings I was wondering if you knew of a way to do that. I am using vertex blending so the blend mixes between the 2 textures and causes that transparent look.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/building3.jpg

[Kalango]

well...when programming with directx you use 2 texture indexes (bricks and white paint) and one alpha map to blend these two textures, so the alpha map would be a rought white cracked wall painting...
In max there is a map called blend where you do the process i have already described...but you're using xsi -.-'''...try to find something similar xD.

EDIT: Oh and you can also do this in photoshop adding a brick layer witj one alpha channel...and then add the texture to the model. :thumb:

[Twindragon]

For next gen games how many alphas or vertex blends can you have on an object? Some of the ways Ive been going about doing my environment might not be the best way but I'm learning as I go along so maybe by the time I finish my last building I will have it down lol.

[Matroskin]

Nice buildings !

But what bothers me is that bricks usually are whether visible whether not. I mean it doesn`t seem to look realistic if u blend bricks with exterior coating layer (sry, dunno how u call that in English).
The dirt, water traces and kinda green stuff migth be blended like this, but not bricks with their coating. Cause a coating is whether there whether it detaches (and thus absent ;) ).
Spots of detached clusters r actuallly supposed to contribute to a relief of the walla nd to have sharp border, but not to simply blend with underlaying layer.

[Matroskin]

regarding ur question about cluster thickness and alphas, I've got a suggestion.
If you want to use a separate alpha texture to mix ur texture layers, and at the same time to have a feel of thickness of outer cluster's layer, all u need to do is to add(paint) some relief effect in ur wall texture; but it should be done around the area that will be transparent. Like on this image here:

[Twindragon]

When you say add a relief effect to the wall texture do you mean the alpha or the actual texture. I'm using tileable textures and mixing them with the alpha so if you meant the texture then I don't know how that would be accomplished. Who knew the intricacies of environment texturing would be so hard lol

[Vahl]

honestly I think modeling the relief in directly to show the height differences between the plaster layer and the bricks would be ideal, plus you can make the transition softer ot harsher by playing with the thickness and blending.

[Matroskin]

yes, I meant diffuse texture. Yes, in that case u can`t use tilable textures (or u could, but large ones, so that repetition wont be too noticable).

Yep, it`s tricky. At this point I think doing a unique texture per floor of buildings is ok. then you could buid them with pre-textured blocks. Just relax, and paint a whole texture, forget about tileble textures for areas where u get to have several layers, just paint them all together. But still u can use tilelable textures where u have only one material on the surface.

Or u can model, as Vahl suggested.

[Twindragon]

Thanks for the replies guys. I've been playing uncharted drakes fortune. Great game! and have been studying the way they've done the buildings which are not unlike the buildings I'm doing. For some of the walls I noticed that they did model the relief directly in the building so I could go this route or do a whole texture. Not all of my buildings are going to be terribly dilapidated so I could use tileable where its needed.

[Twindragon]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/building_relief.jpg

ok I have reworked the texture so it has a relief. I think I need get rid of some of the detail in the plaster and I might experiment with the depth of the relief a bit. What do you think?

[triatami]

that color pallet is striking, and in a very good way. great improvement on the broken bits! its hard to see if the bricks need to be sunken in more at that distance, but my guestimation is that theyre fine as is.

[Matroskin]

yeah, it looks cool now :)
It feels more realistic imho.
I just think that dark grey color like this one is not typical for Venice, but that is easily adjustable on later stage, when u will ahve to do global color adjustments to make everything fit.

[Kalango]

this is what i am talking about :), whatch out for some visible seam tho, and you could also dirt more the grey paint..keep it up man its getting pretty nice.

[Ramseus]

That's more like it. Seems to be coming along swimingly.

[Armanguy]

are those tiles on the roof normal mapped?

[Twindragon]

triatami - Thanks that means a lot.

Matroskin - I thought you would think it looked better, Now that I have a plan of attack I think the rest of the buildings will go by faster.

Kalango - Thanks, this was more of a test so I still need to refine a few things so the visible seams will be gone and I need to grime up the bottom where it meets the water.

Ramseus - thanks.

Armanguy - Yes the tiles are normal mapped.

[Twindragon]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/sidewalk.jpg

bit of an update. Ive modeled the start of a sidewalk and a bridge which is to the left but still needs to be textured. The building to the right still needs a lot of texture work and details added like balconies and shutters etc. Over to the right is where the restaurant will be. I also have other buildings started but they need to be a bit more detailed before I show them off.

[Marcus Dublin]

Little by little it's all starting to come together:), way to go Twindragon keep em coming!

[butt_sahib]

Definately looks awesome :D

Great job mate :D

[Genz]

definitely. its getting there :) nice work

[Ramseus]

I'm starting to think I'm dyxlesic, I keep reading the thread title as "vehicle environment" :brick:

[kongni]

Cool stuff! Can you show us your texture sheets?

[Armanguy]

anymore progress im loving it!!!!

[Twindragon]

There is a good amount of progress but at the moment instead of building each building at a time i've been doing it in stages so I still have to finish texturing the majority of them and adding more details. I could show you what stages they are in right now though. I just need to capture the majority and post them.

[Twindragon]

Ok Here is an update. I have 2 more buildings to texture and many of these buildings still need some love. As well as some shutters and other extra details like balconies etc. as soon as those things are done I will set the buildings up in a scene and start adding the assets and what not.. what do you think so far?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/buildingsa.jpg

[Twindragon]

what the heck.. I save it as 800 width and however high.. damn its so small.

[Razorb]

awww split the pic up dude :D i wanna see some of those details ! and btw its nice to see you carrying on with this environment ! been a while! im lookin forward to seeing it at the end :D GOOD LUCK !

[Ramseus]

You did 800 tall, silly. Bring on the proper size.

[Twindragon]

Ok I finally have an update. The environment is almost done. I still need to finish up some textures which can be seen in the pictures as well as add wires going from building to building, clothes lines, plants and signs etc. What do you think anything I can change so far?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice2.jpg

[EricChadwick]

You might take a look at how the lighting was done in the Venice-style level for Painkiller. It's amazing how much a nice lighting setup can bring out even such simple levels as these, especially a lightmap baked using radiosity and ambient occlusion.

http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/images/painkiller_venice_0006_th.jpg (http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/images/painkiller_venice_0006.jpg) http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/images/painkiller_venice_0014_th.jpg (http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/images/painkiller_venice_0014.jpg) http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/images/painkiller_venice_0025_th.jpg (http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/images/painkiller_venice_0025.jpg)

[Kalango]

some buildings and textures are "too clean", they are not that much shadered, like if some kind of "baked lighting/shadow" was missing...i cant be more specific -.-'

[Twindragon]

Alright so how can I do a lightmap baked with ambient occlusion? I use xsi and in the past ive just added ambient occlusion to all of my models which renders way to slow. For my objects I use the ultimapper to create an AO map and I bring that into photoshop to create my diffuse map. So im guessing I would only need to make a lightmap for the main buildings and sidewalks? so how is this done?

[borris]

Hell ya man, that scene is looking really sweet. My only crit might be to do what was stated earlier and dirty up a few of the building a bit more and possible have darker water. The water in Venice is sadly not that nice looking lol. Other than that I think it looks really awesome. Keep up the good work.:thumb:

[Twindragon]

Well I figured out how to do lightmaps in xsi so now I have to figure out the right settings to render them out..

[Twindragon]

here is another wip render of what I have so far... lightmaps are in and I just have to add a few extra details, problem is mental ray is starting to crash on me and I have to figure out what that problem is..ugh. I changed up the lighting to reflect the level in painkiller do you think it looks better?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice7.jpg

[Aftermath]

bring down that glare some in the back and make the water muggier right now it looks like a swimming pool, maybe put some trash on the floors and some pebbles or dirt? Maybe its just me but it still feels to clean and deserted. The enviroment should feel that it has life beyond the screen.

Keep up the great work.

[kongni]

Cool stuff twindragon!
So you probably already mentioned this but I was wondering, what engine are you exporting this to?

[onelung]

looking really nice. Getting some floating debris will really help push the believability of the water. Might also be nice to give some of those archways a little more geo on the curve. Those are the only things really telling my eye that this is low poly.

[DreameR]

this is awesome...

[Twindragon]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Aftermath - I did add some grime to the water thank for the suggestion and I will also add a bit more grime to the sidewalks.

Kongni - I don't have any plans for putting this into a game engine yet..

Onelung - good idea about the debris ill add some and add a bit more geo to the bridge.

DreameR - Thanks

Oh btw I was wondering if anyone knows of a place where I can dwnld a free tileable animated texture map for water preferably as a normal map but if not I can still convert it.

[Twindragon]

Alright im done except for animating it for my demo reel. Before I get into animating however I wanted to post a few pictures and see if anyone has any suggestions on anything else it needs. Here are the pictures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice11.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice12.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice13.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice14.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice15.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Twindragon/venice16.jpg

[Kalango]

improved a lot man. Reminds me of tomb raider 2. looking realy cool, lighting is kicking ass.

[Modelsru]

it's really nice. good job.

[EricChadwick]

One thing that's missing is some AO under the vase and the wine bottle. You can solve small things like this by adding a couple quads slightly above the table, using a small soft dark blob for transparency, what's called a decal. Good for other kinds of local detail too, graffiti, cracks, etc.

[Twindragon]

Thanks for the tip. Do they do decals like that if the objects are dynamic? Mine don't move but I was thinking if it were in game they would probably be dynamic so I opted not to do any occlusion for the smaller objects.

[EricChadwick]

No, typically not. But this is a portfolio piece, so it doesn't really matter if those objects are shootable, you should just make it look good.

[Aftermath]

I would have to disagree with you Eric, mainly because im sure he would like to get a job at a game company and if this is for sure a portfolio piece he might not want to put in to much "fake" LOD. He would be placing him self in the same boat as those people who place 10-20 mil poly zbrush models in their reels that dont even have the low poly to back it up. I think if he keeps it within the industry standards then he will be fine by showing his eye for detail and also his World Building skill.

But i do agree with you that the walls do need more signs or something but this is venice so graffiti on the river walk probably wouldnt be there.

TwinDragon this is just my 2 cents, you probably would want to take Erics advice over mine because he is in the industry and i am just a mere student.
The water turned out better , glad to see i could be of some service to you.

[EricChadwick]

Hehehe.

The decal trick is quite common, and actually would show you know the tricks of the trade, if you showed some wireframe overlays in your portfolio (which you should). Make a full-bright render of just the diffuse maps, no lighting, and overlay a black wireframe on it, presto!

[Skyme]

Just wanted to say the scene is looking great. Nice work.

[axelalonso]

okay I am lost in the technical 3d software render language although I really like the good light render you are showing specially in the shoot were the bridge it's on 1st plane.. all look good but like they said the cafe table need some more love, specially in the wine bottle and the candle jar...Great work! its a nice detailed piece you got..:) also if I may suggest the lack of plants could be easily foxed by flower pots in the balconies and shops...:inocent: its a nice thing to get a pretty walk in those streets on beautiful Venice.