How Important is a piece of paper?

[Rot.Fox]

Ok, so here I am half way through my two year technical art course, but I have the feeling that I could probably have learn't everything so far on my own and perhaps the rest. My question is thus, how acceptable is self tought students as opposed to those more traditionally tought? Would this be an acceptable route to take?

I ask this mainly because it has been on my mind for a few months now and I'm coming up to the end of my first year and have been mostly underwhelmed with pace when considering the cost. The last year of course is basicaly introductions to high poly modeling, modeling the human body, low poly modeling and developing demo reels.

In my opinion, I'd have thought that having the drive to learn the techniques used in the field through your own self discipline would be more impressive? Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

~Thanks :)

(-edit-)

[Sectaurs]

college is for losers.

unless it teaches you how to spell correctly, then it is okay.

the little piece of paper accompanying a good portfolio will net you a few extra bucks for your first job. that seems to be what I've gathered from my college-boy smart co-workers.

a good portfolio and willingness to wrestle your boss are more important towards getting a job.

[EricElwell]

From what I gather, the experience of being surrounded by others who are thirsty to learn is where most of my art-school friends place value on college.

Since you are considering this.. I think a good question to ask yourself is this: "Am I driven and learning techniques/principles on my own now?"

If you are not, art school cannot hand that to you, and there is no reason to believe that if you left art school you would magically begin to be driven and learning on your own.

[Ramseus]

This topic is utterly beaten to death over at CGTalk, and the consensus from folks who've been in the industry for a while and who've hired other folks is that no a degree won't make a real difference in hiring process except if you want to work in a foreign country with no prior experience. And then the people who are currently in art schools say "oh yeah man it's so huge you totally need one, join us."

Personally I'm in my last year of high school now, after which I plan on just training myself until I'm good enough. Not that there's any good schools in the middle of noman's land anyways (aka the prairies). Mod teams are as good or better than any school, methinks, since it is a production environment and not just "k, let's do...... this!"

...plus I'll have money in the bank instead of a giant debt. That's always a nice thought.

[cookepuss]

Both practical experience and school serve different purposes. Work will teach you about getting the job done. Simple as that. You can't learn about work through school, as they'll only gloss over the topics. On the other hand, work will often pigeonhole you into a certain mindset. College, liberal and fine arts alike, is all about broadening your horizons and making you more well rounded.

To me, even if you find college to be a waste in principle, it is still worth it for the level of discipline and variety it introduces into your habits. School is about more than just a piece of paper. If you're a self-starter, you're going to learn more on your own anyway. Sure, you can produce a kickass portfolio and score yourself a job, but you'll also be missing out on a whole host of experiences that AREN'T related to your career choice.

[Ged]

I think doing a degree is useful simply because it gives a student the time to study what they are interested in away from the pressures of work and real life to some extent. Living with students and working alongside like minded people is a great experience. Though I have personally taught myself almost everything I wanted to know anyway. I guess I could have not gone to uni but my course is varied so it gives me a good base to fall back on if anything goes wrong, it also means more starting pay, and if Im gonna spend my time studying stuff anyway I just think I may as well get a degree for it.

[cookepuss]

It also doesn't hurt that the piece of paper is itself another asset to be considered when hiring. If you've got two people of equal talent and equally spectacular portfolios, that "piece of paper" can be the tie-breaker.

Here's another consideration:
Think about the far future. Suppose you have kids. How can you tell them, "Eat your peas, be polite, and go to school." if you only did 2 out of 3 of those things. I don't have any kids, but I certainly wouldn't force/advise them to do anything I wouldn't have done myself. Especially if your kid wants to be something other than an artist, it's hard to argue the point that they should go to college when daddy didn't. It's a little hypocritical. Plus, we all know that "because I told you so" never works. :p

[Rot.Fox]

Alright well I've made up my mind to stick with it. Thanks for your thoughts on it, they really helped me out.

Ramseus - Yea, I tried searching for it before on the forums but guess I gave up a bit too soon. :P Sry for rehashing old topics.

[Sectaurs]

Cookepuss, while i get your point, i think the whole parents angle is off in another galaxy of wrongness.

You teach your children to do what you think is right - not to do what you did. If you're telling them to go to school, it is because you think it is the right thing to do. Arguing that you can't say that if you didn't go to school is horrible logic. Neither of my parents went to college - couldn't. If anything, that made my siblings and I going to school more important. [the fact I didn't is irrelevant]

Every generation has a plethora of new experiences and opportunities available to it, suggesting you should try everything first is impossible. Should your parents not have encouraged a career in art because they hadn't done that?

Wanting to be something other than what you are is probably the easiest argument for them to go to college - it is obviously something you can't teach them and need to learn elsewhere. If they wanted to follow in your footsteps, then it might be harder to convince them college is a viable option.

Plus, doing something solely to have a one-up on your future children if fine and all, but this is a rather expensive one don't you think?

[cookepuss]

Cookepuss, while i get your point, i think the whole parents angle is off in another galaxy of wrongness.
:) And you are rightly entitled to your opinion. I am telling you with regards to how I was raised. That kinda insinuates that such a method would make me, a product of that upbringing, pretty f***ed up. I sincerely hope that's not what you're suggesting. Boston may be a 4 hour drive away, but I've got time to lay down a whuppin.... :D j/k

You teach your children to do what you think is right - not to do what you did.
I totally disagree. True leaders practice what they preach. They lead by example.

You watch all of these obese toddlers on shows like Maury Povich. You ask yourself why that is so. Then you look at the parents. Nine times out of ten, the parent is themselves obese. Then, you ask the parents to change the way the kid eat, but don't ask it of the parents.

PARENT: "Tommy? Susie? Eat your veggies."
TOMMY: "Why?"
PARENT: "They'll make you strong and healthy."
SUSIE: "But Mommy isn't eating them. She's eating a cheeseburger."
PARENT: "Eat your veggies."
TOMMY: "Why?
PARENT: "Because I said so."
SUSIE: "Why?"
PARENT: "Because I said so. Eat your vegetables or no TV."

It'll go back and forth, back and forth until it eventually degenerates. You know it will. :)

Telling your kid to do something that you yourself wouldn't do is just a pretty hypocritical way of parenting. That's like telling your kids not to smoke or have premarital sex when you yourself have a pack a day habit and lost your virginity at prom. You can tell them to learn from your examples and your mistakes, but there's a good chance that they'll only learn from making them themselves.

BTW, this is not purely my notion. It is something I picked up from my mother, who has a post-grad degree in child psychology. Take that for what it's worth.

The fact is, kids are born a tabula rasa. They're blank slates - empty sponges waiting to eagerly absorb information. That's the reason why we often see aspects of our parents in our own personalities throughout and later in life. It's called patterned behavior. A child mimics. Monkey see, monkey do.

Naturally, that isn't always the case. Otherwise, it wouldn't account for the predictably rebellious teen years. However, everything we are today is formed from everything that happened yesterday. That includes the "mental diet" fed to us by our parents - both through dictate and example.

A good example is the way my parents brought me up.

My mom was a high school dropout. She dropped out in the 9th grade. She spent the better part of her teens and 20s as a secretary. Then, in her late 20s she married my dad. She decided that, since she was going to have a kid (me), she wanted to set a good example and raise the kid (me) the right way.

She went and got her GED. highschool equivilancy. Then, while my Dad worked, she went and got her college degree while I was still a toddler. After that, she went back to school for a post-grad degree.

I actually got to see my Mom go to school. That was a real example to me. She taught me the importance of education, in addition to practical skills.

Even though I went to school like other kids, she would even home school me every summer. Blackboard... books... homework.... The whole shebang. As such, no real summer break for me ever.

Part of the reason was because of my intellect. Not to sound like an @$$, but I was a legitimate child genius. I was always years ahead of my other classmates. The school wanted to skip me ahead several times, but my Mom wanted me to socialize more with kids my age. Hence, the home schooling during the summer.

The other reason for the home schooling during the summer was because my mom wanted to show me that learning isn't confined to a building and that it never stops. It was a great lesson. I don't think I would have learned it as well had she simply told me. Showing me worked a lot better.

My mother continues to teach me and inspire me through example. Not only does this former high school drop out have her post-grad degree, she's also working on her 2nd novel. She inspires and encourages my creative side.

My dad was the 1st born in a household of 5 kids. He was actually and quite literally born in a dirt floored shack back in Puerto Rico in the late 40s. Like my mom, his mom was unemployed and his dad was a factory worker. Both of them didn't speak much English.

My dad grew up in the South Bronx and Spanish Harlem. About 90% of the guys he grew up with either died in Vietnam, from gang violence, or from drugs. Because of the impoverished upbringing he had, he couldn't even go to college.

However, because he got married and had a kid (me) on the way, he took his future into his own hands too. While he worked during the day, he went to college at night. Again, I got a chance to see another of my parents go to school. He would occasionally take me to class with him. (Loved his classes on philosophy. :))

Like my mom, he led me through example. Do as I do. Don't simply do because I say so.

Today, my dad is a successful financial consultant with his his own business. My dad inspires my practical side, again through example.

Everything I have learned and the better parts of who I am are because my parents showed me instead of told me.

In addition to myself, both my younger brother and sister happily attended college after prep school. My sister is a programmer. My brother is an art director.

After prep school, I went to college as a CompSci major. Today, I am a successful artist (of all things) and have had my own business for well over a decade. My mom inspired me to be creative. My dad inspired me to be entrepreneurial. I inspired myself to learn to speak 5 languages. :) (None of them being Spanish, ironically. Don't speak a lick of the "mother tongue." :p)

Should I ever have kids, I'll show them a better path by setting the proper example. That's how you lead.

Can I tell my future kids not to smoke "because I said so?" No. I used to smoke. However, I can tell them that I used to, but don't anymore. Would I be happy if they ever did? Probably not, but then again I can't be a hypocrite and cry foul. As long as they lived under my roof... hell no. Turn 18 and it's their life. Until that point, all I can do is show them that I don't and won't ever again. I lift weights and run 4 miles daily. Maybe they'll pick up on that.

Kids learn from the examples we set. Bottom line. About the worse thing that a kid would pick up from me, apart from my rambling, is my sewer mouth. :)

There are so many sh**ty parents out there. Really. Real parenting is an investment. It takes hard work. Just because I am not one myself doesn't mean that I don't know. I wasn't oblivious as a child. I saw my parents struggle and try to figure it all out. It was hard. Parts of my early childhood sadly and actually resemble the movie "The Pursuit of Happyness." Thankfully, the hard work is done and now they get to play doting grandparents to my soon to be born nephew. :)

If you're telling them to go to school, it is because you think it is the right thing to do.
Again, I can tell a kid not to smoke because smoking is bad. (Mmm-kay) However, I won't ever tell a kid that I never did it. Yeah. I did. Kids aren't stupid. Treat them as if they are and they'll resent it. Lie to them and they'll pick up on it.

Words only say so much.

Neither of my parents went to college - couldn't.
Part of that is, probably, a generation thing. My parents' generation was driven more to go to work and earn money instead of going to college. My grandparent's generation was lucky to even finish grade school, much less high school.

I'm sure that part of it is also financial. If the money isn't there it just isn't happening. I get that.

My dad's first job was in a bank. He was earning $26 a week. (That was decades ago, naturally.) When my mom met him, he was supplementing his income by hustling people in bowling alleys. No joke. Heck, he paid for their first date through money won in a bowling game. :) Of course, that's before he got married and went back to school.

I'm sure that your parents had their reasons. What is is. I'm sure that they brought you up well and told you how to be an upstanding citizen.

All I'll say is that anything worth having is worth working for and fighting for. A fruit doesn't grow without a seed. Muscles don't build without some sweat. My parents each had really impoverished upbringings. Most people have some sort of adversity or hardship with which to contend.

Should your parents not have encouraged a career in art because they hadn't done that?
My dad was against it. My mom was in favor. Remember, he's the pragmatic financial consultant. She's the novelist with the child psychology degree.

Growing up, they actually wanted me to be a doctor or a scientist. Like I said, I was a child genius. I was already programming computers, building electronic devices, and performing chemistry experiments by the ages of 6 or 7.

I even went to college to major in Computer Science. Prior to finding art, I had intended on getting my pHD in physics. I've always had a fondness for quantum mechanics. I would always tinker around with formulae all through high school. That's why, before 12th grade, I had already completed 3rd year college Calculus.

Again, I'm an oddball. I'm formally trained in math and science, but do art for a living. I was the super brain in high school, but was friends with the jocks and even varsity lettered in several sports (fencing and wrestling.)

You can't really go by me.

[cookepuss]

If they wanted to follow in your footsteps, then it might be harder to convince them college is a viable option.
Again, a totally different situation for my upbringing. I got to see my parents go to college in their late 20s or early 30s. I got that extra home schooling during the summer. For me, it wasn't about them telling me the value of an education. It was about them showing me. I got to see them go from having no college education and mediocre wages to having post-grad schooling and being sucessfully self-employed. I was taught through example.

Plus, doing something solely to have a one-up on your future children is fine and all, but this is a rather expensive one don't you think?
It all depends.

My grand parents busted their collective asses in factories to provide a future for my parents.

MY parents busted their butts even more to show me the value of hard work and eductation. My dad isn't making $26 a week anymore. He can happily charge his clients $250 an hour on a 6 month, 40 hour per week contract. I won't blink. He won't blink. His clients won't blink.

The hard work pays off. The money you spend comes back to you. Like the old saying goes, you've got to spend money to make money. My parents struggled to put themselves in a better position for themselves AND for their kids.

My brother and his wife won't ever have to worry about that stuff. They easily make six figure salaries. I won't have to worry about it for the same reason. That's why I can afford a small 10-node, 20 CPU render farm for my apartment. My sister... She's still finding her way. She's the rebellious one though. No surprise there.

Either way, none of us will have to have our kids struggle like the previous generations did. It doesn't mean that we won't teach them the value of hard work or education. We all will. We'll just take different approaches. Any kid I have would learn about hard work and industry through my work ethic. They'll learn about the importance of education since I can rarely be seen without some sort of book in my grubby hands.

I will show them instead of just telling them.

[cookepuss]

Yep. It's Friday. Too much free time on my hands. :)

BTW, in my age group, one of the things that separates me from others of Hispanic descent is my actual generation. I'm a 3rd or 4th generation American. My great grand parents became citizens. Both my grandparents and parents were US citizens by birth since people born in Puerto Rico enjoy American citizenship. I was born in New York city. That makes me somewhere along the lines of a v3.0 or v4.0 American in my family. I don't even speak Spanish. My parents never spoke it at home. They only spoke it with their parents.

My grandparents version of the "American Dream" was to own a house and send their kids to school. My parents upped that ante by a fair amount. My brother and his wife intend to do the same.

[ryuju]

cookepuss is on fire! I think you just earned the largest post ever award. I dare someone to argue with that monster of text... :)

[cookepuss]

I'm sure somebody could. It's just personal opinion based on an equally personal experience and upbringing. To each his own.

[Sectaurs]

well, i'll keep my reply short.

i suppose it all comes down to how we were raised differently.

my father smoked heavily and drinks more than he should, but we were always told not to do either. we weren't expected to follow example, but to listen to the reasoning behind their words and decide for ourselves.

hypocrisy has never bothered me, though. for me the difference between knowing what is correct and doing the correct thing are forgivable. what someone does has little effect on the logic of their arguments. a butcher can be a vegetarian, a smoker can extol the evils of tobacco.

in fairness, i was rarely - if ever - told to do something simply because 'i told you to'. it was always explained why i should be doing something. i had such respect for my parents that i believed them when they said something was good/bad for me, regardless of what they were doing at the time.

but, to stem further discussion about parenting from people who don't have kids, i'll just say everyone's got their own ideas on. hopefully we'll each get chances to test them out!

[poopinmymouth]

I'm gonna go with Sectaurs here. College can be great, but by and large the Universities in the US are pure money making institutions, and while some professors are in it to teach, the system itself is designed as a babysitting system, and actually works against having qualified teachers, especially in rapidly evolving industries like game art.

I know some kids aren't bright enough to listen to words and make decisions for themselves, and must have everything spelled out in order for them to follow in mumsies and dadlekins footsteps, but there are plenty more who need their parents only for emotional support and by 18 are plenty capable of making their own decisions.

By the time we're all parents of kids going to college, this industry won't even be recognizable, so even considering your future, potential children when deciding to stay in college or not, is laughable to say the least.

College can be great for people who need structure, social routines, and instruction (I know I was one) but do not, DO NOT, go into debt with it. Those parts I mentioned can be had at the cheapest of community colleges, even if the program is far inferior to the ones at 30-40k USD a year institutes. If I could do anything over again, I would have stayed at VCU (a public school) where I had a full scholarship, and never stepped foot at SCAD (where I paid 32,000 USD a year). It wasn't even close to worth it, and I'm still paying off the debt, and will be at this rate for at least 2-5 more years.

Plus, look at the artists you respect most. The majority of the ones on my "heroes list" either have no college education, or if you ask them, the majority of their knowledge is completely self taught.

*ninja edit* Also to echo Sectaurs, my parents have a ton of bad habits that I don't follow because I recognized them as undesirable. Not only did they do them, but they didn't even tell me not to do them. So the argument that you'll always follow your parents example is irrelevant. It can certainly create tendencies, but to suggest that a child cannot differ from their parents life choices, is not something I'd put stock into.

Also, I've been in the hiring position before. A college degree has had no weight in my mind at all. In fact, if I have two equal candidates in mind (which never happens, there are always differences that make one more desirable than the other), I've been more inclined to give the job to the guy without a degree, because that means he has discipline, passion, and there is no way his portfolio is based on a formula or having a professor help them with their work.

http://www.mr-chompers.com/images/poop.gif (http://www.poopinmymouth.com)

[Ramseus]

That short story of a post had some contradictions, but I'm not going to try to find them again. Anyways, by age 7 (likely quite liberal) children are developed beyond the highly impressionable stage, so leading by example on the matter of higher education - by which time self-development is mostly done, so the parents' influence is only what they let it be - is utterly moot unless you truly screwed up when your kids were reaaaaally young and now your kids are helpless morons.


That last paragraph is good to hear, Poopster.

[cookepuss]

Edited Out By Request

[Ramseus]

Rah rah rah, too tired to read that wall. Contradictions as in how you said about if you lose your virginity on prom night then you can't possibly extol the virtues to your children of not having premarital sex because that wouldn't be leading by example even if, say, you waited until marriage next time, and then later you say how your mom dropped out of school but then went back later yadda yadda yadda. 'Sall I meant, Mr. Takesthingspersonally.

[FredH]

Cooke, Nice words there. I am glad things are working out for you these days. It looks like you have been through a lot man. Now that I know your history, I can't help but be amazed that after all this, you ended up helping others in communities and even during your personal time on msn. Glad to have you on GameArtisans:)

[Gavin]

Cooke, i can totally relate to your experiences...but at the same time, the hatred for what my parents did made me do the exact opposite. So, it's like the flipped version of you :P

Anyways, the question wasn't how to bring up your kids.

Rot.Fox: I have a very similar education to what you're getting as I went to CATAC in Frederiction a few years back. Man, out of complete frustration, I dropped out after the first year and moved here to Vancouver. It was a really rough start, but I evenually made my way into the industry and am now working with multiple big named clients and am, I guess, fairly successful. When I assisted with hiring people, it never really mattered to us what kind of education they had on paper...as long as they could clearly show they could do the task at hand. I've worked with a bunch of different places and have really never been questioned on my schooling, always my portfolio/working experience.

I'm not saying "drop out" but I think my opinion is pretty much shared with most of the community. A "piece of paper" is important more so if you want to work internationally. Even then, the most important thing is your actual skills. Yes, it IS another asset leaning in your favour for jobs as it shows you could stick with something and had determination...but at the same time, just having a part time job and busting your ass on a mod team or working on a folio in your spare time can show just as much determination and drive (like what poop said..)

I don't regret my short education, necessarily, although sometimes I consider going to an art school just for fun. In my one year, I went from a guy who knew nothing about computers other than the 486 I had to run doom on to a guy knowing the basics of character design and the foundation of XSI. I gained a few life long friends and industry contacts. Obviously, since then, my own ambition and working in my personal time has made me evolve...and I think that's practically the story with everyone.

i dunno, I'm rambling now :P

cheers!
Gav

[cookepuss]

I edited out my last post.

Not ashamed or embarrassed by what I wrote. I don't even regret my reactionary response. It's that hot latin blood. ;) I only regret taking so much attention from the issue at hand, which was school and education.

Yeah, I know that I had much more personal detail than necessary in there. I'm also aware that it makes some people very uncomfortable. That was kinda the point, as it offered another equally valid perspective of things.

However, I agreed to edit out the post, but only because the thread itself had strayed a bit too far off topic. Mea culpa. My bad. :)

~~Rob~~

[cookepuss]

Cooke, Nice words there. I am glad things are working out for you these days. It looks like you have been through a lot man. Now that I know your history, I can't help but be amazed that after all this, you ended up helping others in communities and even during your personal time on msn. Glad to have you on GameArtisans:)

Oh, you charmer. :) Hey, everybody has junk in their attic. Nothing special about mine. It just formed who I am today.

That is why, on topic, I feel that education and that "piece of paper" is as important of an asset as any portfolio or demo reel. When you wage war, it helps to have as many weapons and as much ammo as possible. It doesn't mean that you can't win without "x", but the battle might be a bit easier.

In the end, you've got to follow what works best for you, regardless of common wisdom. If you feel that you've got the chops to get by on skill alone, by all means. If you feel that a piece of paper gives you a competitive edge or sense of personal validation, same there.

I know a lot of great artist who have no diploma, but are insanely established. I also know some people who have degrees and have simply wasted their lives and talent. You can't equate degree with talent or credibility. You can only call it what it is, a credential. It's somebody vouching for you in writing, saying that you aren't totally useless. Now, if you can back that up or not is another story.

[Vikkie]

That piece of paper is as important as how much value you put into it.

just my cliché 2 cents :)

[shadowbreeze]

hmm i must admit it's a tough one, for me personally i have found more than your paper comes into play when your going for any job/career, i have two degree's and a few more bit's of paper mostly art related, one is science based (Genetics and stuff) and in the end ever position i have held really came down to well me will i fit in and do i have a similar personality, passion and commitment to the project like the people already working on it, or am i just a smart ass who will just shit them to tears, take sickies all the time, and leave when something better comes along, leaving my employer up shit creek once again.

but this is just my thoughts and experience when it comes to papers and real life knowledge.

education is important but how much is up to the individual.

ok enough rambling for today:D

[cookepuss]

Very good point. All the degrees in the world might get you in, but they won't keep you there. That's pretty much a given though.

Another thing to consider: Even if you manage to score a job now, there's nothing to prevent you from getting that paper later on.

I remember, when I was in college, there was this 50+ year old guy in my comparative religion class. Great guy, btw. It was one of those classes that was only held once a week, but the class itself lasted for about 4 hours.

I remember seeing this guy come in, every week, for months - rain or shine. He'd be there with a smile on his face and ready to dive in for the new course work. I kept asking myself, "WHY is he here?" I mean, I knew why I was there, but what was his motivation?

One class, during "intermission", I sat down with him and asked, "Bill, how can you sit through a 4 hour class at your age? Better yet, WHY?"

As stupid as it sounds, the answer was, "Why not?"

Here's a guy who was a fairly decent success in that he had a stable job, a house, and a family with kids my age. "Why not?"

It's not like he needed that paper then or now. It was just something that he felt that he didn't do, but maybe could have. Now, it fit into his life when it didn't then. I always thought that was pretty cool. School wasn't something that he needed to do to get out of the starting gates. It was something that he wanted to do long after the race had been started.

I guess what I'm saying is that, the order of operations doesn't have to be as simple as "school -> job" or "no school -> job". If you've got the chops to make it work in the real world, by all means. School will always be there for you.

[shadowbreeze]

cookepuss - "That's pretty much a given though."

yeah it should be but you would be surprised at just how many people i've worked with that thought i've got the paper i'm shit hot and i'll be running this company soon and then wonder why they get ignored and eventually shown the door and i had the pleasure of showing the door to them sometimes:D

oh and yes anytime is a good time no mater what age i have always been involved in art in some way or another even when i wore the lab coat:doh:

it took me errr some years to decide to get into 3d and went back to school to learn it, although i have learned more here and through other forums.


end of high jack

[cookepuss]

So, you're in (paper or not). What now? This, I think, is one question that more people should be asking, instead of "to school" or "not to school." (As we've seen, there's still no definitive answer to that one.)
i've got the paper i'm shit hot and i'll be running this company soon and then wonder why they get ignored and eventually shown the door and i had the pleasure of showing the door to them sometimes:D

If only life were always that fair with tools like that. I've gotta think that (at least) half of the workforce is populate by people who think that they're entitled to success. Even worse is when some of those same talentless @$$ clowns get actually ahead.

As much as I favor education, there are just so many real world things that school can't teach you. No amount of schooling can prepare you for the notion of office politics either. I guess that's one of the reasons why I prefer being indie. I'm not a huge fan of @$$ kissing or stroking egos.

[East]

This thread has some great insights. I'm currently considering a change in careers. Art has always been just a hobby of mine, something I do in my spare time to keep my mind creative and flexible. But I've come to a point where I seriously feel I want to make a living out of it. Been toying with the idea for a few years now, but never seriously.

So, I definitely appreciate your experienced views, as I'm debating whether or not to get a formal education in the field. From what I've gathered I learn more buying specialised training DVDs and visiting forums like these, than take a 3 year education where the technology and techniques taught seem, from what I've gathered, almost old.

This field seems ever evolving, and evolving quickly, so there's always the need of having to constantly educate onself to stay competitive--be it formally, or on your own time--which is an aspect I really like.

[cookepuss]

From what I've gathered I learn more buying specialised training DVDs
3 cheers for training DVDs!!! Best thing ever to happen to the 3D art world. I've seen more info packed in one 4.5 hour DVD than a full year's curriculum of school work. Some of them are just so insightful and chock full of real world tips. The only downside is that you can't ask the professor for some more personalized help. Then again, that's the great thing about forums.

This field seems ever evolving, and evolving quickly, so there's always the need of having to constantly educate onself to stay competitive--be it formally, or on your own time--which is an aspect I really like.
Yeah. Any time you've got some level of tech involved, you either have to evolve with it or get left behind. That's why I don't mind spending $60 or $70 on a DVD. It always pays for itself.

The other advantage of training material is that you get to keep it and watch it over and over. Imagine having to take a class or a whole semester again. Yikes! I have a friend who went back to school. She's about to graduate now. However, she had to repeat a whole semester because of personal life stuff. The cost to do that was just crazy.

Training materials? Love em. :)

[shadowbreeze]

lol i don't think there should be a final answer to the question, take note of everyones life exp, and find your own way of making it work for you, Take life by the balls and make it work for you, now that doe not mean being an up yourself rude idiot, take some action and if does not work do not cry and go it's not fair, learn from it and don't do it again, school and that piece of paper to much to handle right now fine go and see the world, come back to it when your ready or go gun ho and get it now and then go see the world aaarrgh you get.


East- yeah i must admit the 3d thing is a bit of a strange one for me like you said i've gained more from training DVD's forums, than from a school and paper, and all the freelance work i've done not one of my client's ask to see a degree .

oh this little rant was not directed at anyone person, but i hope that at least someone out there might get a little bit of go in them.:lol:

[blankslatejoe]

sectaurs, you and I both know that college grads have better haircuts!

more seriously, that piece of paper can be important when it comes to moving up in the industry later and displaying overall maturity (not that college grads are any more mature, but there's a weird 'belief' that they are). A producer once told me he looks for a degree simply because its a signal of reliability and follow-through. Next he'd look for mod-experience or community involvement. But, he also said a kickass portfolio can be an instant trump card.

IMO an art degree, for the most part, isn't worth nearly as much as the art skills one would acquire from spending the same 4 years on these various forums, entering every contest available...for free. Even then though, you might not be baddass enough to have the portfolio be considered a 'trump card'

Most artists are not badasses--they're just passable enough and have a good attitude and can get the job done. The degree can be the thing that tips favor one way or the other during hiring.

If you can go to a cheaper school, and then do the forum thing and self teaching on the side, you have the best of both worlds.

[blankslatejoe]

"and actually works against having qualified teachers, especially in rapidly evolving industries like game art."

that, sadly, is usually very true in the US.

[shadowbreeze]

this is fun, i vary rarely do more than one post for a topic, but this is good.

so it would seem there is a lot of variation between companies. and dam it i lost my train of thought.......

but it looks like at the very least it's a good thing to have at some stage for those who don't have one??????? for this industry

[Evan Smith]

Being employed currently on the educational side of things, I would say that the person who would get the most mileage for his dollar out of formal education in 3D or Game Art is someone who knows he wants to get into this industry, but doesn't have a sweet clue about how it's done.

One reason I say this is because of the time lag for new technology and technique to filter down from production cycles into the educational system. From time to time I review textbooks that might be used in a course (one of the perks of the job - free access to 1000's of dollars worth of educational books, dvd's, and software :)) There is one invariable truth in that by the time a book is writen and published the info in the book is usually at least a year old or more when it becomes available to students. Add in to that the time to review the book, integrate it into an existing program, and have a new crop of student enroll and actually recieve the information and the time gap is increased even more.

One answer to this is developing custom educational content in-house for the latest technique and tech being used that isn't accessible otherwise to students. This however requires the educators to be on the top of their game and they have to continually educate themselves as well to be able to keep up and be able to offer the most to their students which also takes time both in studying and in developing the content delevery format.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that people who are already fairly knowledgable about things and have some skill like East aren't going to benefit nearly as much out of formal education as a newb would as they probably already know well over half of what would be taught anyhow.

The peice of paper saying you know stuff is certainly nice to have (heck I have 3 myself so I'm speaking from a students perspective as well), and a formal education is a great stepping stone to get you off on the right foot if you don't have a clue to begin with. However, for people that are already 3/4 of the way to where they need to be talent wise, training DVD's, mod experience, and comunity forums such as gameartisans is probably the best choice to further their knowledge and can save alot of money (I currently still have about $30,000 in student debt remaining).

When it comes right down to it, I have to agree with Joe, a kick ass portfolio trumps all, school or none.

[ThatDon]

I get my piece of paper this week, wee for me! (only cost me 40G's)

[cookepuss]

That's still insanely cheap.

IIRC, when I attended college, it was probably around that per year - before dorms & such. My old high school now costs ~$25k per year ($15k per when I attended). I was there for 6 years (grades 7-12).

Now, imagine you're also one of those people here with a post grad or 2nd degree. Yowza!

All things considered, $40K is getting off pretty light, ThatDon. Impending congrats on the fruits of your labor though. :thumb:

[shadowbreeze]

congrats :thumb: ThatDon

wow your education is expensive even if you consider 40K cheap what i paid is peanuts if i remember correctly i was paying around 6k a year for uni not including text books and but that was not too much more, and it is a world standard uni.

[blankslatejoe]

yeah shadow, thats about how much my university cost as well.

[ThatDon]

Forgot to mention, that was 40Grand for a 2 year AA.

[poopinmymouth]

That's still insanely cheap.

IIRC, when I attended college, it was probably around that per year - before dorms & such. My old high school now costs ~$25k per year ($15k per when I attended). I was there for 6 years (grades 7-12).

Now, imagine you're also one of those people here with a post grad or 2nd degree. Yowza!

All things considered, $40K is getting off pretty light, ThatDon. Impending congrats on the fruits of your labor though. :thumb:

Yes it's insanely cheap compared to other insanely priced US universities, but it doesn't justify it. Ask him if he feels like he got 60,000 worth of instructions.

It's one thing when you pay that for a medical school and work under world famous neuro surgeons, or at UCLA Berkley so you have access to electron microscopes (over a million bux each), but when your professors have never worked a day in the industry of their life, and use free web tutorials or the built in ones that come with the software, asking for these high prices is not only ridiculous, it's downright dishonest and immoral.

I owed 43,000 from 1.5 years of schooling, and I can promise you I didn't receive even a fraction of that amount in knowledge from the professors. The experience was certainly worth something, probably more along the lines of 10 grand, but the fact I'm still paying it off when they did practically nothing towards gaining me the salary I'm using to pay it off is infuriating.

Expensive US 3d trade schools = not worth it. Ever. Period.

http://www.mr-chompers.com/images/poop.gif (http://www.poopinmymouth.com)

[sage]

I'm really with Poop on the money aspect of schooling, not worth it. That said it does impress the middlemen people, HR, so it does has it's merits to have one but not as I was taught when I was a kid. I think the idea, well this is how I was raised, work your arse off and you get good things, you don't you get screwed. Study hard and you'll make something of yourself. Well that's something poor mothers teach their children because they really believe this is true. In my case I have found this to be very much a myth. I have been passed up because I do have a degree at some entry level jobs. While that was probably best for me in the long wrong getting the piece of paper or papers, as in BFA and MA is not good for all careers especially especially Art. In the art industry these papers mean very little except perhaps to good companies and then your ability to create art is more important to them than the papers. So if you feel your are wasting your time at your current school I suggest you transfer to another, or look what you have access to. If you have access to the software used in the industry and a decent computer to work with then it may be worth staying but you'll have to adjust your mindset if you haven't already that what you learn from your professors doesn't really apply and that the work you do while in school won't really hold up for a portfolio. What you are probably getting there is you get to hang out with a group of motivated peers that want to succeed and share their knowledge with each other and help keep you on track and learning new things. If not get out now and look for another place.

Along the lines of what Poop said about the money,

...the experience was certainly worth something, probably more along the lines of 10 grand, but the fact I'm still paying it off when they did practically nothing towards gaining me the salary I'm using to pay it off is infuriating....

Now imagine how you would feel if when you got out of school with enough skills to do an entry level job but no one gives you one on grounds that you don't have enough experience. What I'm getting at is there is a loop hole system between schools and Industry needs. Schools claim that you can get an entry level job when you get out implying that they are going to provide you with what you need to know before you get out. This is generally false. And easy way to find out if your school will or can help out when you get out is go to their career services site. If they can help you get interns and jobs in your field then you are in a good spot, just suck it up and do your best to learn what you need to know,if it's not enough push yourself harder, but if they don't know anything about the target industry you want to be in then again get out and find somewhere else.

One way you can easily find out if the program your are going to is full of themselves is ask what are professors required to teach this course. Most places require a masters degree and some require a doctors degree. So if your professor took the time to get his MA and PHD in Game Design, or Animation when did he have time to work in the industry. I imagine some have the MA but really to require this of all industries is ignorance of the state the Game Industry is in and the school has no freaking idea what the pros do to get their money.

I would be a very good professor, why because I would fail any punck ass student that didn't show up to learn and worked hard, I enjoy teaching others and learning anything I don't know already. Also I would not have students waste their time giving them bull shit assignments like animate your name, draw an apple, go take pictures of people without them knowing it, make students in a sculpture class work with cardboard all semester, etc, but like Poop I feel it would be immoral to do so because all I have done in the game industry is some freelance and I feel I have too much to learn before I can go and charge money from students to teach them what little I do know.


Alex

[Vrav]

It's nice to see agreement against art schools. If I am to become an artist and pay for education, would prefer to develop skills on my own time, and get a degree in something more interesting that I could pull from. Something that would boost my creativity, not just skill and experience I can develop on my own. Like history, mythology, or even psychology, to better understand viewers' reactions to my work.

Learning the 'how' of art on your own takes immense dedication and sustainment of interest. These are incredibly important traits, and thankfully not too difficult to keep. But are they underestimated, when compared to a degree? An artist that undercuts himself should put some thought into what he really wants to do; I don't mean to sound so critical, but becoming what you want takes quite a lot of time and effort, so a deal of careful thought should support that investment.

If you really want to become something, you will strive become it no matter what, soon finding yourself as awesome and capable as desired. The promise of time, diligence and open-mindedness to learning new things are what I rely on, personally. All else follows through.

[MM]

i personally think you should go to school to get an education and not a job.

i would suggest going to a good art school to learn the basics of art which i clearly see is lacking in many 3d artists now days.

btw, to get a job you need skill and good attitude which often improves if you get an education. just my 2 cents.

[blankslatejoe]

mashru's got a point
and to bring things back in favor of schooling--there are a few actual ART ART schools out there I would definitely call worth-the-money to go to. the problem is that they are all non-accredited. I got a chance to check out the conceptart.org atelier this last summer and it was exactly what I would have been looking for in an art school--professionals I admired teaching, a close knit group of students, a very close teacher-student relationship, a decent workspace. It wasnt a huge state-of-the-art facility or anything, but it was exactly what it needed to be. And the quality of the kids learning there---man--those were some skilled artists!

[YdoUwant2know]

I think one thing that has been missed in this discussion is that there it takes more than just artists to make a game. As most of us are modelers, it is natural for us to focus just on this one aspect, but games cannot be made without the help of others; such as programmers, animators, audio techs, accountants, secretaries, and the like.

Each of these fields are critical for most games, and have different requirements educationally. (I don’t know about you, but I for one would want people working in payroll to have some kind of higher education.) Programmers from my experience are also much more likely to have a Computer Science degree than say an animator or a modeler.

So I guess one thing you would have to look at when determining to go to college or not, is just what part do you want to play in making a game.

[cookepuss]

True. For what it's worth, I went to college for CompSci so I can totally understand what you're getting at. In that case, it is totally necessary. If anything, a post-grad degree for CompSci or math is much more of an advantage nowadays. With advanced physics and rendering engines, there's such a huge technical push on the back end of things.

However, being an art board and the point of discussion being addressed by an artist, I would say that it is all a fairly moot point. For CompSci, you're right. For art, the school issue is much more fluid. I would suspect that it is probably the same with the sound guys too.

[rv_el]

I will put my 2 cents in. And my 2 cents is not in terms of what will make you a better artist.. make you better at rendering metal. make you better at chewing out a normal map. make you better and painting hair, or anything dealing with the red ocean of craftsmanship.

What this is about is about is my personal experience about better developers. About a career in the long run.

Imo there is no real right or wrong answers here. To each there own, and many people will find their own way. Thats why there is so much overlap concerning issues like these. To go to school or not to go to school? To learn traditional or to go straight to digital? etc.. etc...

I will say this - Many of the people i've worked with who have gone to school, done menial tasks, busted ass for a grade, busted ass with a team on a project etc.. have been the best people i've ever worked with. Best in terms of being able to take critisim, in person.. and really good at communicating and sympathising. These people also often times (depends on some factors of course) will have a level of terminology. Can talk about things on a whole. The game on a whole, team work on a whole, the whole game industry in general. Color Theory. Whatever.

Many of the people i've worked with who skipped school have been the opposite. They have been hard headed people who are awesome at what they do technically, but do not work well with anybody. Some of these people went to school, but quit under the idea that school is "lame" but really they just couldn't handle dealing with other people, with authority, with the menial tasks that life just gives you.. with the work load - the fucking grind. and the funny thing is school dont have JACK SHIT on reality. not even close. College is in between high school and reality. It doesn't even really prepare you for hte fucking madness, and yet some of these people skirt around that, then learn how to render metal and make a crate. and they think they are ready to work in a professional and aggressive envoronment with a team.

anyways. .i've know amazing people who didn't go to school. most of them left for the right reasons. they are very intellegent people and never had a problem with school outside of the fact that the school was catering to the least common denominator. as in... the school is dumbed down for the slower people.

Keep your attitude positive for this industry. Saying "school is for idiots" etc.. around the wrong people is not smart. It is the mentality i speak about. It is the mentatlity a lot of game companies (those looking for long lasting teams) are trying to stay away from. School is great for some. not for others. its not worth telling people they are idiots for doing one or the other. That is what is not smart to do :) hehe.

sorry if this didn't answer anything hahahahahah :) its just something i wanted to share



oh btw. i went to school before the internet was big and before i knew about sites like this and i'm also from a small redneck town. so going to college in "the big city" was not only for art learnin' but it also changed me completely as a person.

[cgjeff]

I'm for art schools, provided the right student base, and the right instructors. I can tell you that the curriculum when I attended the art institute of pittsburgh wasn't the best. Sure there was a bit of good knowledge to gain from them, provided you actually took the time and effort to pick the professor's brains and do more than what was required for the courses. Which unfortunately a lot of the students did not do.
However, what was great about my experience there was the people. The instructors were more than willing to go above and beyond to help those that were willing to learn. I got pulled in to more than one project with my instructors at Carnegie Mellon University, as they were all getting their masters there, and needed some help keeping up with schedules. Also the student base. I was surrounded by, and living with around 12 guys and girls all of whom were extremely passionate about learning. We would see new trailers of things like the crytek engine demos, and spend hours trying to figure out how certain parts were done, and experiment with recreating the effects ourselves.

Those sort of experiences are invaluable in my opinion. As far as art colleges go, it's all in what you put into it. If you make friends with the right people, and don't just do what's required to get that piece of paper you will take a lot out of it. Go above and beyond, create your own projects that just happen to fit in with your school work, but are far more ambitious. On more than one occasion I would take on something that was far above my own ability, and naturally fall flat on my face. However the instructors never failed me for doing so, because they realized that I was really pushing myself to try to get better and learn new things.

My friends and I were the group that would always be ahead of everyone else, and that was never enough. And the instructors were always encouraging of that.
Yes, the institution of college, as a business, sucks. But, the people and artists involved in teaching are, more often than not, great people and will help you become what you want to become.

You just have to want to become :)

[TryForce]

I would be a very good professor, why because I would fail any punck ass student that didn't show up to learn and worked hard, I enjoy teaching others and learning anything I don't know already. Also I would not have students waste their time giving them bull shit assignments like animate your name, draw an apple, go take pictures of people without them knowing it, make students in a sculpture class work with cardboard all semester, etc, but like Poop I feel it would be immoral to do so because all I have done in the game industry is some freelance and I feel I have too much to learn before I can go and charge money from students to teach them what little I do know.
Alex


<_< get a professor fast, give me the adress to the university, i will be your first student!


Geez, this thread is really helpful! thx!

[sage]

Hah hah ha, that's funny, I really enjoy sarcasm man.

I don't qualify to be a professor man, sorry, I don't have a masters or phd so no accredited univeristy in the US will hire me. So no dice there and I don't meet my requirements to go teach others for money. When I have enough industry experience maybe but don't hold your breath. :) When I graduated many of the Animation students were sadden to see me graduate because I always helped them with their problems and helped them figure things out. Same with the students that took night classes. They would tell me many times that they learned more in a day from talking to me than what their professor taught them all semester, when I was the computer art lab tech and student aid. I even asked the art department chair to allow me to leave the lab open after hours so students could have more time to do their work. I did that for free. Holy crap you can here the cheesy violins playing. :)

All I can do is share what I know so pm me if you want, it may or may not help. At any rate maybe I'll make you laugh. I'm for schooling I just hate all these Universities and Colleges in the USA that make their programs be a cash cow and don't teach anything to the students. Sorry if it sounds like I'm against schools, but really some of them just throw so much bs that it should be illegal. I think the piece of paper is critical, the problem is too many schools just abuse their "status" and don't deliver the goods.

Alex

[iceblazer17]

all I have to say is my college = biggest WASTE of time ever.

I wish I knew this before I spent 4 years of my life wasting time...but....thank god for websites like this and events like GDC

[IGotGear]

It's true it's still possible to find work without a degree, but I'd strongly advise anyone to go to school right after high school and I mean the best 4 year University you can go to and not a certificate program. Study hard and get your degree. Having a degree will only help you, and not having a degree can most definitely hurt you.

In many cases the person who receives your reel and resume has nothing to do with the industry. They are a corporate HR person looking to fill a job description and those job descriptions have education requirements. If you do not meet the education requirements of the job description the chances your reel and resume will make it into the hands of someone with the authority to determine if you are suitable to the position and to hire you are lower.

I did not finish my degree and it has shut some doors on me. It's one of my biggest regrets. Now that I'm about to turn 35 and am married and working full time it's extremely difficult to go back and finish. I have a good job and am paid very well, but I have missed a couple of huge opportunities because of my lack of education. Pixar had me out for an interview, it went great. What stopped them from hiring me is that I did not have a CS degree which is a hard requirement for their RaD group. I know how to program, I've been doing pipeline development in feature animation for a few years, but the head of the shorts group and the supervising technical director were uncomfortable with the fact that I had taught myself how to program and the math necessary to do the work that I do. I had the same experience with ILM's RaD group.

Go to school, kids. Life is long. Get school out of the way while you are young and then move on with your career.