total NOOB to Dominance War has some Q's

[cosmo85]

Hello everyone. My name is Marco, and I'm new to DW. I'm happy that i found out about it before it started , and I'm seriously thinking of entering a piece.

Being a noobie, I was hoping to find a place where they discussed the rules/deadline, and everything else i have to know to submit a piece. Thanks alot to anyone who can help me out. Not really a question i guess, heh.

Later, and thanks

cosmo85

[Wahlgren]

Competiton hasnt started

Faq hasnt been uploaded

Theme is a secret

Specs are still a mystery

In other words. Wait three weeks and come back and all the information you will need is here.

[triatami]

cant... wait... need... info... now...

come on fred, give us some hints!

[Wahlgren]

I for one welcome the silence before the storm. You rookies have no idea what you are getting yourself into!

Not all of you are going to survive this! :3

[cosmo85]

"You rookies have no idea what you are getting yourself into!"

Enlighten us. What were some of the rules for DW 2. what was the deadline etc.?

[Japhir]

ehm.. what about this: http://www.gameartisans.org/dominancewar/2/readbrief/index.htm
:D

[vied]

Enlighten us. What were some of the rules for DW 2. what was the deadline etc.?

the future event is DW 3 btw... and it hasn't started yet...
maybe it'll begin at the end of january of february..I dunno too
but one thing for sure... it hasn't started yet :inocent:

and like japhir say, if you like to know what is the rules for past DW 2 or DW 1... you can always check in there (http://www.gameartisans.org/dominancewar/en/index.htm) :D

[cosmo85]

Thank you japhid and vied for your replies. That's exactly what i was looking for. Even though it's from previous DW's it gives me alot of insight on the setup. Thanks a bunch, preciate it.

What kind of theme would you want to partake in?

marc

[East]

I for one welcome the silence before the storm. You rookies have no idea what you are getting yourself into!

Not all of you are going to survive this! :3
By the way you talk to us, you must be a seasoned DW-veteran, so how about dispensing some advice and wisdom to the troops? ;)

(Oh, and what's with the name change again? What happened to Dr. Airguitar?)

[FredH]

Advice and wisdom for the troops? Only start on your final if you are really confident in your initial design. Also, since there will be a lot of participants, coming up with an original idea that no one else is doing is hard. Simply try to come up with a design that you are comfortable with, and enjoy creating it regardless of what others are creating themselves and/or say about yours.

Also, during the event, be sure to check out other artists' works to fuel your own inspiration to try your very best. And if you can, come up with an idea for your entry extremely quickly and then as soon as possible, start your 3d. The more time you have to make a stellar presentation, the better chances you have of placing in the top 50.

One final important thing.... follow the theme of this competition as best you can. If it says make a pig, don't make a dog, and if you are more familiar with making male characters, don't make a female character for the first time. Save your explorations and practice pieces for a time that is not during the war:D

Aside from this, good luck:)

[shadowbreeze]

FredH -very true words from the wise, there are couple of things that should be added.

drink coffee or red bull but not BOTH, believe me :eek:
take breaks and remember the sun
and most importantly this is meant to be Fun and a chance to learn and improve it's not life or death:thumb:

[Wahlgren]

By the way you talk to us, you must be a seasoned DW-veteran, so how about dispensing some advice and wisdom to the troops? ;)

(Oh, and what's with the name change again? What happened to Dr. Airguitar?)

My trophy-award says I´am. Who am I to question the allmighty trophy? :)
Namechange wad due to me sucking hard and being confused. :)

Aside from what FredH said. Here´s my pointers, experiences and thoughts.



* Don´t rush it. If you are done a week before the deadline you are doing something wrong. It´s meant to be hard, take time and push yourself to your limits. :)

* Help your fellow and (hopefully) your enemies with crits and advice. As FredH said. This is meant to be a FUN competition. Sure there is fame to get but that isn´t so important.

* Putting time and energy into this WILL pay off. It´s an investment in your self as much as a fun competition. Last year I learnt a good deal of tricks that helped me score a job at Funcom a few months after.

(Even though I´m Enviro.)

* Don´t lurk in the shadows. Show your ideas, Show your thoughts. You won´t gain ANYTHING on keeping secrets. Not showing your models or anything will just hinder yourself and actually keep you away from scoring a good position if that´s what you are after. Odds are with this number of people. You aren´t alone with the idea anyway.

* Follow the brief. Please. Last year I was kind of dissapointed with the huger monster tank-things when the brief obviously said stealthy, ninja-guy-thing. They are of course really cool but I can´t see how they would be stealthy to be honest.

* Don´t worry. You are NOT alone. We are all going through the same hell as you are. Some less than others (The real nutjob talented guys that spit out these kinds of characters in a week). :)

* Rest, Sleep, Take a step away every now and then. You won´t really fall behind. You will just gain a fresh outlook and spot the errors. Don´t we all look back on finished models and go like this every now and then? "Nice nice ok nice WTF!? GAH!"

* You dont have to be great or the most awesome artist to join and have fun. Me? I´m an environment artist. I love doing weapons and vehicles and objects, That´s where my strength is. Characters. Not really.

I pretty much only do my characters when i´m in this comp so I´m not really that good at doing them. Something I would like to change. I intend to at least gain a little bit of respect from you all this year. :)

Anyway, Lots of rambling, lots of nonsense. Take it for what it is. Hehe :)


/WarVet Oink :cool:

[Wahlgren]

durr, double

[cosmo85]

This stuff sounds good. Hah, I'm new to this forumn, but by no means to 3d/vfx. I know about deadlines, hah. One thing i couldn't find out about was the deadline. How long does each entrant have to finish a piece?

[FredH]

last year, everyone had 5 weeks, and then there was a famous 1 week extension. This year, there will probably be no extensions, but the time will be increased to 7-8 weeks:)

Oink, nice advice man:thumb:

Let's not forget:

- If you are enrolled in a 3d school or art school, immidiately ask your teachers if you can use dominance war as one of your mid-term or final assignments. The quicker you start posting your work online, the quicker you will make friends in the field and find a job (if you or anyone is looking for one).

[cosmo85]

Thanks Fred. yeah, 7-8 weeks sounds like good time. Do the models have to be rigged for animation, or just for the posing?

[East]

Oink, thanks for the advice. I will keep them in mind when waging war :)

[Guedin]

A lot of information and advices ... Thanks for all. It will be my first entry in DW too ... I can't wait to start:thumb:

[BiG ToE]

Do the models have to be rigged for animation, or just for the posing?


The short answer is no, they do not need to be rigged.

Long answer, rigging depends on what your character is, and the pose in which you modeled them. If you use the T pose, it wouldn't be the best idea to submit your character in that pose. But there have been and will be people who model their characters in a simi posed, pose. So when its time to do final renders they are good to go.

Rigging can't hurt, and if you model in the T pose you might want to make sure you have time to rigg, at least the arms/hands.

If your an animator, then rigging would be a great idea. The judging for this War takes just as long as the competition itself, so you can use that down time to make a few animations, even a few backgrounds.

[cosmo85]

Thanks to all of you who replied, I'm glad i asked so other people can be better informed about it too. Thanks for the info 3d total.

[cosmo85]

Silly me, thanks BiG ToE

[cosmo85]

silly me, thanks for the info big toe

[cosmo85]

good grief, excuse the double post.

[Wahlgren]

But now its a tripple post :(

[cosmo85]

Too true oink. Excuse my misperception prior to the post. It shant not happen again.:lucky:

[cosmo85]

Another thing, when they say 6000 polys, do they mean overall closed faces, or tris. I worked in a group once where they said, yeah make it 3000 polys, but they really meant tris, so i ended up doing 3000 quads and had double the poly count they needed. Is that the issue for DW?

[BiG ToE]

yep, when it comes to game art, we work in tris. So if it says make your model 6,000 polys, make it 6,000 tris.

[cosmo85]

Ok cool. Thanks again big toe. Darn good thing I asked

[blankslatejoe]

Also, since there will be a lot of participants, coming up with an original idea that no one else is doing is hard. Simply try to come up with a design that you are comfortable with, and enjoy creating it regardless of what others are creating themselves and/or say about yours.


I just wanted to add my chime in on this--theres going to be a ton of entries, and a lot of people striving to be original just for originalities sake. It's sad, but originality isn't worth as much in these comps--nine times out of ten the win will go to the less-original-but much better crafted entry. Having a fresh idea will win you respect and kudos, but having something gorgeously made will win you the prize :)

then again, the prizes arent everything, the contest itself is a pretty self rewarding activity.

[Yung]

Adding to blankslatejoe's advice. Originality is always welcomed, but let's face it, your coolest and most unique idea, when broke down objectively to its core, most likely its been thought of and maybe even done, better. Perhaps looking to do old idea in new twist or refreshing view would better. As my friend scold me once, "Listen Tommy, there's really nothing new under the sun."

I think focusing would be on finishing it nicely with clean presentation and reaching the industry standard's quality would be a better goal, since not only that would win the prize, perhaps job offer as well (dream on for me).

[Japhir]

(...) and if you are more familiar with making male characters, don't make a female character for the first time. Save your explorations and practice pieces for a time that is not during the war:D

question: i've done sculpts/normal maps like ..2 times or so? so do you think i should try and make a sculpt/higpholy + normal map for my dominance war or not? it would be a perfect opportunity to learn all of that, and since i already know the basics of baking it shouldn't take ages to learn it properly...

thanks!

[BiG ToE]

Japhir: I would say making that high poly sculpt would be a good idea. As long as you have your low poly done and unwraped, you should be good. I say have your low poly done first, just in case your high poly doesn't work out, you won't be screwed. This is a low poly cometition after all.

[Fatima_Cnstrukt]

question: i've done sculpts/normal maps like ..2 times or so? so do you think i should try and make a sculpt/higpholy + normal map for my dominance war or not? it would be a perfect opportunity to learn all of that, and since i already know the basics of baking it shouldn't take ages to learn it properly...

thanks!

I think you should definately do some normal maps, one of the best aspects of Dom War is that it pushes you to put out your best work and better your skills.
With that said, just don't go too crazy with your design if you don't have much experience normal mapping or sculpting. Keep your design relatively simple, because the sculpting process and getting your NM's correct will take more time than you think. It's better to have a finished okay model than a half finished crazy design. IMHO anyway.

[Burtzum]

Is this war the first to have a concept art category? I don't remember seeing any 2D stuff in the previous competitions.

So, how do I sign up for the GameArtisans.org team? :inocent:

[triatami]

NOM NOM NOM: heres another bit of advice, dont stop working for a week! dont stop posting your updates (within reason)! this is why i have yet to complete a DW entry, oh yes and never... EVER... under any circum-umm... i forgot what i was going to say...

anyhoo, have fun :p

[angrykid]

great! lots of good info, its nice to hear the experience from you guys. this would be my 1st DW if i can finish.

[Eraserhead]

Can the final renders be taken in a Game Engine (such as UE3 or CryENGINE2)? or need to be taken in the 3D program (Max, Maya, etc.)?

Thanks.

[Marcus Dublin]

That’s a good question and I think it’s undecided at this point. My guess would be that it’s going to be in the modeling app only but we’ll see what Fred decides.:)

[Ramseus]

I've never seen a rule saying "your final can't be rendered in game!!!!!" IMO that would just be silly, game art is ultimately about getting stuff in game, or at least treating it like it is, innit? Fred let us use fancy renderers for our beauties last year, so why not fancy game engines too?

[Deto]

I think the game engine is allowed. As Ramseus said, we were let to do fancy shadows and shaders in 3D soft too :)

[confracto]

respoding to Japhir way up there. ^

as far as wondering whether to do normal maps and sculpts, and wondering in general to anyone thinking of treading into unfamiliar territory:

NOW IS THE TIME TO LEARN AND PRACTICE!

look back on what the last 2 wars were like, look at things you might be interested in making, or new techniques you're thinking of trying. start practicing and learning now! we all know the competition isn't for a few weeks, and we all know we don't know the theme, so we can't start on anything yet, but we can use this time to hone our skills, learn new techniques, and practice in a safe, and faily undeadlined environment, free of the stress of the actual competition.

so yeah, japhir! try some sculpting! and some normal mapping! if you don't feel confident with it when you start concepting, don't use it. even better if you DO feel confident with it, and do use it, because you bacame confident by practicing it now!

Personally, as soon as the war was announced, I broke out my sketchbook (badly underused) and started sketching and drawing, JUST to get it in practice for the war, and found some z-brush tutorials, as I'm still a complete noob in z-brush :P I learned alot from how badly I was prepared last year....and realizing 3 hours before the deadline my polycounter in max was set to poly's and not tri's, which lead to the most stressfull 3 hours of my life.

[Japhir]

thanks a lot everybody! i'll try and sculpt some stuff every now and then to get in the mood and just first build my lowpoly+unwrap before starting to sculpt just to be sure.
thanks!

[Sectaurs]

pfft. i'm not doing normals. sculpts are for ze mudkips. you'll get a diffuse out of me. maybe an alpha.

[Deto]

Japhir, if you need something to test on. I can send you my preeeetty much full quads krogan head (For sculpting practice) + lowpoly version which is unwrapped (for unwrapping the hipoly version). Unless of course you've got stuff to practice on already :)

[bin]

I think the game engine is allowed. As Ramseus said, we were let to do fancy shadows and shaders in 3D soft too :)

so.. we,re allowed to usew advanced renderer such as, MR/vray or advanced shaders like SSS ? :eek:

[Deto]

I'm not certain if we can go THAT far. Better wait for FredD :D

[bin]

^i mean in DW2 =P

one more thing.. do anyone here knows where to see the wip progress of previous DW entries?

[Marcus Dublin]

One way to do it is to search each of the forums archives, you can just type in Dominance War 2 and most if not all of them will come up due to the same naming convention in the heading. You may have to be a member to search some if not all of the participating forums, I'll see about finding a master link to the page that had all of the WIP thumbnails posted, if it still even exists. In the mean time you can check out the WIP entries on both CG chat and polycount from last year:):

http://www.cgchat.com/forum/search.php?searchid=16531&pp=25&page=2
http://boards.polycount.net/dosearch.php?Cat=0&Searchpage=22&topic=

^i mean in DW2 =P

one more thing.. do anyone here knows where to see the wip progress of previous DW entries?

[Kalango]

i'm also a noob at sculpting but i will try to make high polies in max xD....DIE!

[FredH]

The winning pose must be a 3 point lighting system on a black background with a pedestal, but the second image, the beauty shot, can be anything. If you would like to put your entry into a game engine for the beauty shot, this is fine. But, you will be up against people using fancy rendering engines for the one image they can go wild on.

For sculpting, if you are using zbrush, learn how to use subtools and layers as soon as possible. These are a must. subtools allow you to work on multiple meshes together at once, and layers allows you to stack your mesh modifications on top of each other. You can even turn these modifications on and off. Carefull with subtools, personally, if I import a new mesh when I have a fancy mesh already in edit mode, zbrush will crash. in order to import new meshes, you have to switch to one of the standard tools/meshes (like a star, donut, box etc) before importing a new one. Play around with it and you will see what I mean:)

[Japhir]

thanks fred!
deto: :eek: that would be awesome! i've got some base meshes lying around (like a skull i did a while ago, and arsh's base mesh obviously) but it would be great to work on it!
really appreciate all the help and stuff!

[East]

Good advice there, Fred :)
[...] if I import a new mesh when I have a fancy mesh already in edit mode, zbrush will crash. [...]
Another good advice is to assume anything you do in ZBrush will crash the program, and save incrementally (ZBrush sometimes corrupt the file if it gets a memory error while saving), every few minutes or so, depending on how fast you work. After some time you develop some kind of 6th ZBrush sense. These days I get this "feeling", mostly when doing masking (particularly topological masks), before doing something -- I then save, and do what I was going to do, and sure enough, it always crashes.

So, if you plan on using ZBrush, take steps to keep your stuff intact.

This is a general rule, though. Always keep your most important stuff on drives that you trust the most. Keep backups both on-site (e.g. external USB-drive) and off-site (e.g. Amazon S3 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?node=16427261) + JungleDisk (http://www.junglediskcom)). So on and so forth. Use a program like SpinRite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpinRite) to keep your drives in pristine condition, this minimises drive crashes. The best $89 I think I will ever spend.

[Deto]

Here's the pack Japhir. It consists of the sculpt ready version in .obj format and also of the unwrapped optimized version in .obj format (the on which you can normal bake on), and including those there's 1 normal map .png, 1 bump map .png and 1 diffuse in layered .tiff format (requires photoshop CS2 I think).

File size is ~9mb.

Its passworded. I'm sending password to you in priv :)

If anyone else wants the file and practice on it, please ask and I'll pm the password to you :) Its not as if I didn't trust you all, but I don't want everyone (read: People I have no idea of) taking it freely :D

http://users.evtek.fi/~mirkok/deto-krogan.zip


edit: I'm writing small guide on how I'm working on with normal maps, I'm no pro, but I 'get around' with them :D No promises, but I'm trying to write it up in few days... or at latest, before the DW3 :)

edit.2: The textures on krogan aren't finished, nor fully cleaned up ;)

[Kalango]

hey fred...how about realtime directx shaders? are they allowed to final submissions and stuff? since they are tight baby!

[iceblazer17]

Thanks for the zbrush tips guys. Im going to be getting my feet wet in that program for the first time too. Im actually studying tutorials online so I can have a plan of attack by the time I get to high poly modeling for my dom war entry. check out these tutorials...theres like a total of 60 i think and they are fairley short but to the point...

http://www.pixologic.com/zclassroom/

...Anyone else know of any zbrush tutorials worth studing before the war starts?

[FredH]

Kalango --> sure, they are allowed in the beauty shot, but not the main winning pose shot.

btw, the winning pose shot is different this year. You must show two poses on this image. A Front pose and a Back pose:) Just thought I would mention that.

[East]

Fred, just to be clear (not that it's immediately important).. by "two poses", do you really mean two different poses, or can we have the same pose showing from two different directions (front/back)?

[FredH]

same pose or two different poses. It's up to you:thumb:

[Ged]

wow does everyone use zbrush? Ive always used mudbox, the layers and importing of objects is easy and Ive never had it crash other than once when I tried to subdivide a rediculously high poly mesh. though it doesnt have all those other features.

I dont like the idea of the beauty render being a free for all and everyone using crazy rendering and compositing skills. I think I could waste too much time doing that stuff when I should really concentrate on the character :D.

[onelung]

front and back, good to hear.

[Sectaurs]

great, you mean now i have to model the back, too?

[Marcus Dublin]

It’s a great idea considering 90% of 3p character driven games has your characters back facing you most of the time!;)

[Yung]

Hah great! Time to whip back up some Vray render tests :D. Need to learn more about this rendering stuffs and also unreal 3 engine. It seems to me so far this is the best choice so far? Not counting crysis, since there's seems to be no exporter for it you.

Anyone experienced in exporting to unreal eds?

[BiG ToE]

great, you mean now i have to model the back, too?

after your first war model, I thought you loved the back-side.

[Sectaurs]

oh snap!


maybe this year I'll focus on the front-side. if you know what i mean ;)

[Eraserhead]

but the second image, the beauty shot, can be anything.

Can it be a quicktime .mov (such as a 360 degree turnaround)?

I am asking because I was hoping to perhaps do some effects, which can only be appreciated in video format and not static render images.

[Marcus Dublin]

I would think not since the system built around the comp isn't setup for that but it would be cool if you were to show it in you’re WIP thread.;)

Can it be a quicktime .mov (such as a 360 degree turnaround)?

I am asking because I was hoping to perhaps do some effects, which can only be appreciated in video format and not static render images.

[Kalango]

vray renderers and video fx? what are you taking about?:uhh:
I think vray or metal ray or wtfray are not allowed for the beauty...are they?
Oh and specs are quite specific regarding photoshop editing or post production >_>
i think....:think:

[Deto]

The winning pose must be a 3 point lighting system on a black background with a pedestal, but the second image, the beauty shot, can be anything. If you would like to put your entry into a game engine for the beauty shot, this is fine. But, you will be up against people using fancy rendering engines for the one image they can go wild on.

FredH sayz, fansy pansy stuff is good for the beauty :)

[Sectaurs]

Meh, if your model and design are strong, you shouldn't need too much fancery to make it look presentable. what need has real-time for v-lasers and mental-rays and the sss?

[genesys]

Mah - today you can get almost every kind of shader effect in realtime anyway.

@FredH: It's just a Pity that it's not allowed to use directX shaders in the Winningpose. Can you tell us why? Today writing shaders kind of belongs to the process of creating game art for me... At least it's still more ingame-ish than raytraceshadows and highpoly pedestal...

[necrostrife]

East: really good advise on Z-brush, I actualy got so fed up with it I've switched to mudbox. I started getting this weired error, when subdivided more than once if I lowered it back down and then back up it wouldn't let me subdevide anymore. Also it kept moving my zero point (pivet point) when I worked with sub objects. Never had any of those problems in Mudbox, though don't have quite the same amount of tools in Mudbox, but it still gets the job done. Guess me and GED will be the only mud people...

[Sectaurs]

oh, i'm not saying you can't have all those technical goodies, i'm just saying they aren't needed for good entries and strong designs.

[GrM]

Guess me and GED will be the only mud people...

with how many people could be competing, I doubt that. I also use mudbox, but Im still trying to become teh leetness with it. I've talked to quite a few people who choose mud over Z simply because the interface is so easy to pick up. So what if you lose some of the more advanced features? there are ways around.

[Marcus Dublin]

To be honest guys there nothing wrong with using both apps if you have them, they both have there strengths and weaknesses. I've incorporated both Zbrush and Mudbox into my daily work flow, and found a happy medium between the two.:)

[Sorenson]

genesys, it's probably because not everyone knows how to use directX shaders. Everyone knows how to use basic lights, so limiting the winning pose to the basics sounds pretty fair to me. At least we can do what we like with the beauty shot and construction shot. Although the construction shot must show wireframes, you could probably squeeze in another fancy colored render:)

[genesys]

Sorenson: well - not everyone knows how to sculpt and create normalmaps - not everyone knows how to draw decent conceptart - not everyone knows about how to effectively use specular maps and so on...
Everyone has his strengths and weaknesses - if not we couldn't compete against each other in a contest, isn't it?
So I think everything should be allowed that is involved in a todays content creation pipeline and that can be rendered in realtime.

For example: if you want to make a next-gen beatem'up with some asian fight-chick, you have to create an anisotropic shader for her satin-clothes because you WANT her to design with such clothes and you don't plan that she will be shaded in any otherway ingame. So you create your textures, your vertexcolors, tangentvectors and so on exactly to work with that shader.
And besides of that: normapmapping's also done using pixelshaders.

I don't see the point in shading our models like ten years ago if we get a polycount of up to seven thousand polys.

[Yung]

Sectaurs - Well said. A great design followed by good modeling and texturing is definitely key. But heh, even beautiful girls can use somemake up and studio lighting to further enhance it.

[Sectaurs]

haha.

well played, yung.

[Ged]

just to make sure... so if I am using 3D studio max to show my character.

winning pose and front back side etc etc = standard max realtime shaders(eg diffuse,opacity,normal bump,specular colour). no jistyles or ben cloward shaders?

beauty render = anything really...vray,mental ray,shaders, sss, post processing, compositing and photoshoping?

[Ged]

How does concept design for dominance war work? I mean if Im messing about now in preparation for the war can I use my ideas in the war or do I have to go and come up with something new even though my old ideas may be better?

[BiG ToE]

well, when it comes to war, the ideas need to be new ones. You can warm up the juices all you like waiting for the war but when the war starts, those ideas will be no good.

[Ged]

well, when it comes to war, the ideas need to be new ones. You can warm up the juices all you like waiting for the war but when the war starts, those ideas will be no good.

oh well Im not gonna do too much warming up then. Ill save my ideas in my head for when it starts. We dont really know what the theme will be anyway :P.

[Yung]

Well you can always do something like TheMagnetic, a prewar exercise. Never hurts to train more. :D

[cosmo85]

So on the fifteenth, i just read up the story, and start my concept? I'm registered to Gameartisans already. Is there anything else i have to do to enter in? Just makin sure before the big day. Also, are there dates set up for deadlines as we go, or we just post WIPs as we get them done?