Another New Guy thread...

[KeithC]

Hey there all. I've been looking for a spot that was centered on Game Art for awhile; can't remember how I got here, but it's good to see a robust community on the subject....finally!

Long story short; I'm slowly getting into game dev (over the last few years) in my spare time (Full time Corrections Officer, part time National Guard....full time Dad, Husband). I have my own site, and it's a constant WIP. I'm looking forward to learn from everyone else's experience...though I may be gone for long periods at a time. My toolbox is as follows:

- Lightwave 9.x
- Paint Shop Pro X
- UU3D
- Ts 7.6 (started it all with GameSpace)
- 3D World Studio
- Torque Game Builder (2D)
- FPS Creator (I'm a Moderator for The Game Creators "FPSC" section)

That's about it for now; I'll probably be submitting some work for you all to tear up, in the future. Till then, you can check out a few of my things at the website in the sig below. :cool:

-Keith

[cookepuss]

Welcome to GameArtisans, Keith. Looking forward to seeing your stuff.
I have my own site, and it's a constant WIP.
Been there. Still there. :p

~~Rob~~
www.robertsanta.com

[KeithC]

Thanks Rob. Checked out your site; saw some great work. I tried C4D out a long time ago; I liked it, but it didn't seem to support the Game Dev side of things.

-Keith

[cookepuss]

I first started using C4D at version 8. Compared to the new version 11, 8 was a mess for artists outside of the freelance sector. Character animation tools were too raw. External renderers were non-existent. Import/Export problems made it a tough sell for game developers. The material system was missing certain game developer friendly features. Overall, earlier versions of C4D were not really big studio friendly.

I've been playing with the R11 demo for almost 2 weeks now, as I wait for my upgrade to hit my mailbox. I can tell you that R11 is a whole other ball game. C4D has evolved quite a bit these past few versions. So much so that I think that more people will and rightfully should take notice.

Maxon finally got their act together on the character animation front. C4D now has some very solid NLA tools. The rigging tool set is, in many ways, now on par with the competition. In a few cases, C4D's rigging tools are actually superior, as film quality rigs can be created with far fewer scripts and expressions.
Collada support in R11 makes it easier to work C4D into a pre-existing pipeline. Since the developer neutral Collada format looks to take over the Autdesk lorded FBX, this is really a big plus for artists in just about every industry - game developers included. Data exchange is a big concern and Collada support in C4D R11 covers every major base, from geometry to animation.
It used to be that a major argument against C4D in other major industries was that one had to use C4D's proprietary "Advance Render" or nothing at all. For the film industry, this was a no no. Since R10, C4D's 3rd party renderer support has become so very strong. C4D supports Maxwell, FinalRender, VRay, FryRender, and now (film people rejoice) Renderman. More over, a total rewrite of R11's Advance Render module makes it comparable, and in some cases even better, in visual quality than VRay. Plus, a 2x+ speed increase to GI is a major plus.
C4D also supports a number of very game developer friendly rendering/material features in the core app. Normal mapping and texture baking come to mind.
There was also a time when the core C4D app did not have any UV tools. Nowadays, Bodypaint3D is fully integrated into the core app. Buy BP3D and you actually get C4D. Buy C4D and BP3D is a standard feature. They're the same thing now. Bodypaint is an essential tool, especially for game developers. The UV tools are just so comfortable, especially the pelt mapping and real-time preview.
Another thing that used make studios automatically rule out C4D was the lack of XRefs. On a big project, XRefs are an absolute must. I actually can't imagine getting through a game or a film project without such a feature. XRefs have been a standard part of C4D since version 10. In that regard, C4D is very studio friendly nowadays.


Still, there are other upsides to C4D.

C4D doesn't use online activation or licensing servers. No dongles either. Just a serial number scheme. More over, the serial numbers don't even tie app to your hardware or ethernet ID. They're just run of the mill serial numbers. Online activation/licensing has always been one of my main gripes against 3dsmax and Maya.
C4D R11 updated serial number scheme now allows for Mac and PC versions to use the same serials.
If you're a studio, you can get a Linux version
C4D is still unbelievably stable and fast, especially with the 64-bit version.
C4D and ZBrush are a great combination thanks to micropoly/subpoly displacement and normal mapping.
C4D's Clothilde cloth system looks to be highly patterned after Syflex. Apart from cloth, I've used it for chains, dynamically crushable trash cans & cars, exploding walls, slime, and so forth.
The hair system is unbelievably fast and powerful. (Way better than Joe Alter's Shave & a Haircut - if you've ever used that.)
Particles are highly scriptable and can be used for everything from simple fire to complex fluids.


C4D still has some rough spots. The Dynamic module is still relatively powerful, but not quite intuitive. Pyroclastic rendering is still beautiful and powerful, but unreasonably slow. C4D still doesn't support spline/NURBS modeling without plugins. Plugin developers and training DVDs are far fewer in number than in the Maya or 3dsmax worlds.

On the whole, C4D is much more studio ready than most might realize.

Yeah. I know. A rant. Oopsie. :p

[carcass]

Thats cool to know Cooke. It sounds very intriguing. I have heard Body Paint is awesome, but I haven't worked at a studio that uses it. I will try and check it out, it seems weird that seems and UVs are even an issue these days, it seems like the process should be largely procedural, I'm hoping Body Paint (or something) will soon prove to be that way.

Keith... I just found this site recently also, it is awesome. I have already learned a ton from all the posts. If you havent checked out the workshop at the top of the WIP/3d thread by marcus dublin, I recommend it. It is all you need to know about making a 3d character for current games.

[KeithC]

Thanks for the tip, Carcass; character creation is something I'd like to delve into someday (perhaps making a base mesh, fo my library, to speed up the creation of multiple characters).

Also, thanks for the rundown on the new C4D; I'll have to check it out again one of these days. I had looked at Max mainly for it's stranglehold on the industry...and therefore it's support by nearly all plugin-dev out there (including importers for odd formats, such as Torque's .DTS). It will be a year or two before I have the money to settle on another major player though. In the meantime, I find Lightwave's modeler to be quite nice and speedy.

-Keith

[cookepuss]

I have heard Body Paint is awesome, but I haven't worked at a studio that uses it.
From what I hear, quite a few do. I know that game artist Ben Mathis, known on this board as "poopinmymouth", has been doing a fair share of promo work for BP and Maxon recently. He'll be doing a BP tutorial at the Austen GDC this upcoming week.

BP, in addition to C4D itself, has slowly been gaining some more momentum in Hollyweird pics too. Some pretty big name credits too.

it seems weird that seems and UVs are even an issue these days, it seems like the process should be largely procedural,
Automation can only be the start to something, as it is sorely missing that creative human component. Human intervention is always necessary for the best results. As long as artist are working under some technical constraints, UVs and seams are probably going to be a key workflow issue for quite some time. Automatic layout and packing can only do so much. Hand optimization of UVs takes you a lot further.

I'm hoping Body Paint (or something) will soon prove to be that way.
BP/C4D will likely go whatever way Maxon's industry partners want to take it. It would seem to me that, over the past couple of years, Hollywood has a lot of input in the direction and development of this app. They're not quite pulling the strings of the developers, but they seem to have a lot sway.

Some of C4D and BP's development behind the scenes has been influenced by what has been going on in the development of films such as Monster House, Open Season, the Star Wars Prequels, and all of the Spider-Man movies.

From what I know, C4D & BP were used to varying extents in all of those movies and the VFX people often suggested things that influenced the development of these Maxon apps.

For example, I know that the new R11 "Projection Man" feature was developed specifically at the request of Sony Pictures. They used it so that they could do the mattes for Polar Express & Beowulf in C4D. Same sort of rationale behind the now C4D standard Renderman support.

Maxon listens to all of their customers, big and small. However, the needs of their bigger studio clients seem to direct development the most, at least imo. Automation of big tasks might never be desired or requested. Artists and TDs like more control not less.

I had looked at Max mainly for it's stranglehold on the industry...
I'm not quite sure if Max has the same stranglehold as it once did. I really don't The high end CG app playing field is in a real weird place nowadays. Between one company acquiring the other and studios making some radical shifts from project to project, every app is fighting for a piece of the pie. Except for Maya, at this point, nobody is safe.

I used Max on and off for a couple of years. Functionally, it has always been a good app. However, it never really managed to "seduce" me as much as it did some of the diehards. I could never fall in love with the UI and the overall workflow. Something about Max has always seemed very sterile and spartan to me.

For me, Maya's always been another story. There are many functional & workflow similarity between Maya and C4D. Kinda like long lost relatives. However, Maya always seems to require 2 or 3 extra steps to any basic operation. That weighty design, especially with MEL, always put me off to the app. Maya's a great app. No doubt about it. I'm sure that I easily could learn it if I was forced too, thanks to its multi-industry stranglehold. However, I'd rather not willingly learn something thats slower than what I currently use.

Besides, right now, I'm taking a break from any more expensive purchases anyway. A fresh license of C4D studio just set me back $3,500. Between that and every other multi-$K expense made in the name of my indie pic, my wallet is in intensive care. :p :@

It will be a year or two before I have the money to settle on another major player though. In the meantime, I find Lightwave's modeler to be quite nice and speedy.
I always did have a soft spot for LW. Granted, I was never a big fan of the compartmentalized design of the app, preferring an integrated workspace, but LW always made a lot of sense to me. It's such a shame that it never got more industry recognition than it has. It's always been that silent unrecognized force. You know that studios use it in big name productions like X-Men 1 and Doom 3, but everybody else hogs the credit and LW gets pushed to the background.

I think that if you wait a year or two, as you propose, the playing field might look a bit different anyway. Not just in the game industry, but across other industries too.

XSI is in a real state of flux right now. Softimage has stopped short of giving it away in hopes of attracting new users. Foundation was a great effort toward that, but they discontinued it in favor of the higher costing versions. v7 looks great, but I wonder if it's enough at this point. No way to know exactly where it'll be in 2 years. I suspect that it'll sit alongside Houdini, with its small yet rabidly loyal fan base.

C4D's in its own weird position too. Like a ninja, its been silently making its rounds more and more in Hollwood lately. It has been used in everything from matte painting to full blown VFX and character animation. However, it has only been in North America for a relatively short number of years. Studios only know the less capable older versions, which are routinely mocked. The real studio level power is fairly new to the app and artists are only coming to grips with that extra pro level power. As such, the good old Magic 8-Ball says, "Ask again later." Plus, trying to convince studios to switch apps is downright impossible. Somebody has to step up and be the first, which is always a risky proposition. C4D's multi-industry market penetration is going be slow going. Forward moving acceptance to be sure, but at a very very slow pace.

3ds Max is still a great app, but with Autodesk's acquisition of Maya there's absolutely no knowing where 3ds Max will be in 2 years. I know that it'll still be a major force in every industry, but that's likely to be in spite of Autodesk's best efforts. They seem to be pushing it to the background in favor of Maya lately, as well as confusing the consumer market with a 2nd version of the app. It also doesn't help that its largely a PC only app, when other the apps are also available on Mac & Linux.

I remember the joke about "3ds Maya" from a while back. I used to laugh at that idea. Now, I wonder if that may become reality in the next several years. Wild speculation to be sure, but you never know with Autodesk anymore. They're some wild, wild fellas. :)

Maya's not going anywhere in 2 years' time though. Outside of the game industry, lots of studios use their own proprietary apps. However, their "off the shelf" app is almost universally Maya. This is thanks in large part to lots of creative marketing. You always hear about Maya used in something like Spider-Man 2. You always hear "made with Maya" in the industry ads. That clever marketing makes you assume that its the only app around. You never hear, "Oh yeah. The VFX people also used Blender, C4D, and lots of other apps on that film too." :) Clever and quite subversive marketing. Maya's not going anywhere anytime soon. Alias/Autodesk have have great press people that practically ensure that there's a Maya on every workstation.

IMO, if you're looking for a "sure thing" in 2 years' time, your early bet should probably be on Maya. Not sure if it's fair for it to be the top dog. Not even sure that Maya deserves such a distinction. However, thanks to a combination of factors, their industry-wide footing is so solid that it's an easy money bet. The ranking of every other app is up for grabs. By the next gen of consoles, the app rankings could look radically different.

EDIT>>> Let's also not forget about that Blender wild card. Blender's already got a sh**load of power. Its street cred is on the rise thanks to the open source film & game projects. If that GUI gets "fixed," Blender just might be a dark horse and major contender. Plus with the rapid development of the app, in 2 years, there's no telling where it'll be in the food chain.

[KeithC]

Wow, you don't mess around when you make posts, do you? :)

I suppose I'll follow along with most of the "big boys" for the next year or so, and try to make an educated decision when it comes time to buy a new app. One thing that has turned people (I've talked to) off of continuing to upgrade their C4D, is the enormous cost of doing so. I haven't looked at what's been added/fixed recently (though you've given me an inkling to do so) though.

Anyways, I appreciate the thorough insight from someone who uses their software to earn an income.

-Keith

[cookepuss]

Wow, you don't mess around when you make posts, do you?
I'm a New Yorker. We don't know when to shut up. :) That and the fact that I only post a couple of things a day, life stuff getting in the way and what not.

One thing that has turned people (I've talked to) off of continuing to upgrade their C4D, is the enormous cost of doing so.
As far as these things go, upgrades for C4D are actually cheap. If all you own is the core app, upgrading from R10.5 to R11 is only $395. If you own the Studio version of 10.5 then the upgrade cost is a mere $695. That's actually very cheap in the software world, especially when you consider that the upgrade is more substantial than the extra +0.5 implies.

Another thing to consider about Maxon upgrades is that, any release from x.0 to x.5 tends to be a free update. Those updates usually contain new features as well as bug fixes. When Maxon does release a x.5 upgrade, it tends to be a paid release, but a very inexpensive one usually - to cover dev costs of the key features.

The alternative would be to go with a subscription type support service. At first, that seems okay, but you'd end up being severely penalized if you missed a whole year.

The only reason why I spent a full $3,500 on Cinema 4D R11 Studio was because my older versions were NFR (not-for-resale) copies. I got them for free as a part of some product reviews I wrote. They were full commercial licenses, but my upgrade path was limited since I didn't pay for them in the first place. I ended up spending the full license price eventually anyway. :D

I haven't looked at what's been added/fixed recently (though you've given me an inkling to do so) though.
Some more features that have been added to C4D in recent years:
- Ambient Occlusion
- A full muscle simulation system
- In-editor audio sync
- A morph system that just about kills anything in Maya
- An image-based visual selection system for character animation controls
- Near-realtime interactive render previews.
- Layers
- A new, more industry standard joint-based character animation system
- Constraints
- Onion skinning
- In editor doodling (much more awesome than it sounds)
- C4D also comes with 2 training DVDs (about 20 hours of stuff) that cover everything from the basics to film quality rigging.


The way I see it, whatever app you choose depends on which industries you favor the most.

3dsmax & Maya usually have a lock on the game industry. XSI and LW are used too, but in a minority of cases. C4D, until recently, hasn't been too friendly for most game art pipelines. Only a handful of games have done in C4D, if you discount BP3D's involvement.

3dsmax also has a strong architectural visualization community thanks in part to Brazil and VRay.

Maya, Houdini, and XSI have a lock on the VFX industry. Just pick a random movie and you're bound to find work done in these apps - as well as dozens of others. If C4D is used in movie VFX, it's usually in those flashy title credits and such (see Spider-Man as an example.)

C4D is used a lot in archvis, motion graphics, and film work. It's used a lot there for texturing, thanks to BodyPaint, matte painting, previs, and full CG sets (like those in Surf's Up.) It's also used a fair bit on TV. All of the CG in the ABC TV show "Pushing Daisies" is C4D made. Same with Starship Troopers 3, on DVD.


Being impartial, I'd have to say that Maya and Max are your safest bets if you want maximum coverage. If you've got a kickass reel on hand, your app choice is really secondary though. Apps are just tools. Just because I know how to use a Phillips screwdriver doesn't mean I can't learn to use a flat head. You know one you know them all. Only the specifics change. That stuff can be learnt so quickly you wouldn't believe. Whenever I wrote a 3D app review, I had to learn it (in full) and write up a full 5-6 page review on it... in 2 weeks. New apps can be learnt and mastered in a short period of time if you're properly motivated.

[cookepuss]

Also, just to give you a very unscientific poll of how each app stands in the global community, I took the following screenshot of CG Talk. It shows the number of threads & posts per app. XSI seems to be dead in the water by those specs. :p However, considering that CG Talk is one of the world's largest CG communities, that seems like a nice barometer of sorts. Nobody publishes sales statistics only because it becomes a game of "mine is bigger than yours is" after a while. There used to be an expensive industry-wide sales analysis report, but it's long outdated.

It's also important to consider that any such report would only note actual sales. Just looking at torrent sites, I'd bet my PS3 that Maya and Max are probably the most heavily pirated 3d apps on the web. So, technically, it's quite possible that Maya could have 5x users than something like C4D, but actally lag in sales. Again, nobody outside of the insiders knows any of this sales stuff for sure.

In any of the forums, you don't get many pros talking about their industry work. That's usually because of NDAs, ongoing commitments, or time constraints that prevent net usage. Regardless, there's lots of pro work going on in every app. (The C4D ezine 3dattack usually has some beautiful pro quality images that you never see on any forums.)

[KeithC]

Again, thanks for the in-depth insight. Just to lay it out, my current aspirations are for game development (2D and 3D) of an "Indie" flavor. I don't have any aspirations of seeking work at a studio; though I never like to rule anything out. I also, at times, like to dabble in a pet project of a purely artistic nature (non-game oriented). I have also thought of starting up a small store of my own, to sell art assets for various engines (as well as generic formats). Trying to make this a "self-sustaining hobby", while leaving the door open to more in the future. I suppose it may come down to Maya or Max; depending on which has the better pipeline for games, and how I react to the UI itself.

At the same time, I'd like to become somewhat proficient at website design; though Moderating 2 Forums does suck away at what little time I have, so I may have to limit it to my own Forums someday...to focus on actual development of my skillset (which is rather erratic right now).

All in all, I have many pipedreams....but little time to make them happen. I'd say one of the first things I need to do is some proper "time-management".:thumb:

-Keith

[cookepuss]

Again, thanks for the in-depth insight.
I work for myself so I get to set my own schedule. I'm usually busy as hell, but today is a slow day for me. Days like this, I catch up on forum moderation, laundry, groceries, etc. It's one of the few days I can actually rest. Otherwise, I work 7 days a week.

Just to lay it out, my current aspirations are for game development (2D and 3D) of an "Indie" flavor.
In that case, you can use whatever the heck you like. :) I would suggest that you stay away from Caligari trueSpace though. It's free. However, it's not exactly the most solid app around. The first commercial 3D app I ever bought was trueSpace v1.0. I stuck with it for many years, along with other apps. I used it straight up to v6.x. With every version, it's only gotten clunkier. Save early & often. The trueSpace motto. :)

Caligari has this bad habit - one of many, actually. They add in some features which sound cool, but are only ever half implemented and half usable. More over, they've got long standing bugs which, even now, date back as far as v4 or v3. Caligari trueSpace is one of those apps that looks awesome on paper and in press releases. However, it's like that hot girl you see in the club. She looks so freakin' awesome up until the point the lights go on and you sober up. :p

Plus, their user support is spotty as best. When I was still a trueSpace user, I got banned from their forums twice for asking (politely) if certain significant bugs were ever going to get fixed. They're still not fixed, btw. Furthermore, because of my complaints, I was even accused in a very public manner of having pirated every single version of trueSpace. I didn't. When I proved to them that they were wrong, by scanning in my CDs, I got some pretty nasty e-mails instead of an actual apology. That's when I finally sent trueSpace and Caligari packing.

While I can't speak for their support c.2008, I can say that the app itself is still a horrible, horrible mess. Booleans and Undo, two critical features, still don't function as promised. The new v7 design/layout is only half implemented - with certain features and renderers being unavailable across the board. Let's not even get started with the GUI. It started off as a thing of beauty and somehow ballooned into a monster with close to 500 icons. Plugin support over the years has gone from mediocre to terrible to non-existent. More over, the community itself seems to be populated with more and more "wannabes" than ever. Not really where you want or need to be if you aspire to pro quality work.

Finally, one word, Microsoft. Their track record of supporting 3D stuff isn't exactly stellar. Just look at how they handled the Softimage thing. Yeah. MS owned Softimage at one point. This was back when Softimage was at the top of its game and had more users than Wavefront & Power Animator (now collectively known as Maya). After 4 years, MS seemingly got bored with Softimage and sold it off to Avid, where it now practically limps along.

trueSpace, even as a free app, is one to avoid. For free apps, your best bet is Blender. Hands down. It puts trueSpace to shame in nearly every regard. If you can get used to the GUI, it's about as pro as you can get without shelling out $k.

though I never like to rule anything out.
Yeah. Gotta beat being a CO, I'd imagine.

I have also thought of starting up a small store of my own, to sell art assets for various engines (as well as generic formats).
Try something like Turbosquid. That's a good online marketplace for that stuff. It doesn't all have to be super pro quality work either. I don't know the stats, but there's gotta be big demand for lots of prop type objects. There's always small stuff that pros either get too busy to bother with or absolutely "need now" for a project.

I suppose it may come down to Maya or Max; depending on which has the better pipeline for games, and how I react to the UI itself.
Pipelines are what you make of them. That's more or less what it comes down to. Something like gameSpace is more the exception instead of the rule. In every other program, it pays to have a set or suite of 3rd party conversion utilities to handle the export grunt work.

When it comes down to it though.... 3ds max... Maya... C4D.. LW... XSI... They're all really the same app where it counts. There's this sort of convergence in functionality that's been happening over the past 5-8 years. 90% WHAT the apps do is pretty much the same across the board. HOW they do it is where the differences really lie. Not one of the high end apps above is missing any critical features. That's why I place very little importance on the idea of the old "which 3D app is best" argument. There's no such thing. It's all the same sh**.

(BTW, I no longer consider NURBS to be a "critical feature" since subdivision technology has overtaken it in terms of usability and flexibility. NURBS have become more of a niche feature, used more in industrial and mechanical engineering markets. That's probably one of the reasons why there's no equality of functionality across board. Everything ends up as polygons by the time it goes to the renderer anyway. Plus, NURBS are inherently problematic both for character work and UV setup. It hasn't been a must have feature in over a decade. That's why I don't miss not having it in C4D. For NURBS stuff, I just use my old copy of Rhino3D.)

The GUI issue is really the killer topic for any new user. Maya is not what I'd consider the most "newbie friendly" app on the block. It's a bear and a half. As I said before, when compared to something like C4D, it takes about 3 extra steps to do the same exact operation in Maya. Some people simply love the Maya GUI, but it's like driving with a manual transmission at times. A lot of steps just to get from A to Z. If you can get used to that, it's no big deal. Regardless, there's a steep learning curve. Even with a nice book with pretty pictures, learning Maya is a major commitment.

3ds Max is a little more "old school" on the GUI front. Nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't have that 21st century polish to the design. Some might argue that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and they'd be mostly right. 3ds max's GUI hasn't changed much in over a decade. Whether that's because of true perfection or a large installed user base is something all together different. However, it's a GUI that gets the job done.

Maya, in many ways, the unwitting host to the beast called MEL. :) MEL is May's scripting language. That's really where the (not so) hidden power of Maya resides. It's also by far the most complex aspect of the app. To squeeze out any sort of decent character rig from Maya, you have to hunker down with MEL. It's not a pleasant experience to non-programmer types. (Similar sitch with Mentalray or Renderman on the rendering side.) Conversely, 3ds max kinda makes the prospect of animating a lot more intuitive thanks to Character Studio.

Regardless, both apps can get the job same done. How you get that job done is the only real difference.

On the modeling side, where gaming is concerned, it's all polys anyway. What app you choose doesn't matter so much. The key features are all in place.

At the same time, I'd like to become somewhat proficient at website design;
If you're looking to get real work on this front... Dreamweaver, Flash (including Actionscript), HTML, CSS, and Photoshop are bare minimum requirements. Knowledge in PHP, ASP, Java, and SQL are a big bonus.

If you're just looking to get become proficient for your own stuff.... Dreamweaver, basic Flash, Photoshop, and a basic knowledge of CSS & HTML.

CSS & HTML are very easy to pick up and learn if you've can remember tags and their elements. It's like learning a new language. I'd suggest the "HTML, XHTML, & CSS Bible" from Amazon. A must have sort of book on the topic. Dreamweaver is more or less a WYSIWYG sort of deal. You can dig in a little deeper than that, but pretty much every complex feature is at your fingertips. Learning basic flash is really not that different than learning basic animation in your native 3D app. You've got you your "stage," "actor" objects, your dopesheet/timeline, keyframes, etc.. Not too hard. Photoshop is.... Photoshop. You can learn the basics in one day. You can become proficient in a week. It can take you years to master every single small feature. Photoshop is a bottomless well of functionality and tricks.

though Moderating 2 Forums does suck away at what little time I have, so I may have to limit it to my own Forums someday...to focus on actual development of my skillset (which is rather erratic right now).
I'm with ya'. Between work, life stuff, my indie film, and helping to moderate this forum, I have zero free time on my hands. I work 7 days a week and about 12 hours a day. Hookers have more downtime than I do. :p This post... This is R&R for me. :) Sad. I know. :D

I'd say one of the first things I need to do is some proper "time-management".
Schedule everything. I mean EVERYTHING. Just to get anything done, I workout at a specific time. I eat at a specific time. I answer e-mails at a specific time. I watch TV at... I usually just DVR everything and put it on while I work.

The important thing is not making a schedule. Sticking to it is where it's at. Look forward and keep moving there. If you stop to look back, you'll never get your pet projects done. My film is tentatively 80+ minutes long. If I stopped to satisfy every little creative whim I'd never get anything done. If some unavoidable time bandit comes along, I can't put the project to bed. I have to shift to another task while the other situation works itself out. That's what I'm doing while I'm waiting for my C4D R11 upgrade. Handling more of the behind the scenes stuff atm.

[KeithC]

I am on the Beta Team for TrueSpace (though inactive most of the time). I was asked to join awhile back to Beta Test GameSpace 2; but since TS 7.6 is free, there was no need for GS2. TS is great for people who have no money, but want to get into 3D; and I promote it as an option (never could get around the UI for Blender...just can't do it).

I've had a model Pack (as well as a few freebies) up on both Turbosquid and the3dstudio.com, for awhile now. I've made a few dollars, but it was pretty much just something I put out there (http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/media-crates-boxes-3ds/302888) to see how it would go. A couple of hundred dollars from that pack isn't bad (mostly made from an old store I had; but partly from Turbosquid and 3dstudio), and it was a good learning experience (just to note that Ozark Games was our first venture, and it no longer exists...for various reasons).

Website design is in the same ballpark as my game-dev ventures; want to start out making a better site for myself, then who knows....

The biggest bump we're (3 of us) having right now, in getting our project started, is starting and finishing the Game Design Doc. The brainstorming part is long over with. I've often given thought to giving up the game-dev part, and focusing soley on my game art development. Still up in the air on that one; since I've been part of that community for so long now. By the way; there are a few free games on our site, if you want to blow a few minutes of what little time you have left.:D

Yeah. Gotta beat being a CO, I'd imagine.
Yep; it's not exactly my dream job, but there's not much for employment in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (or in most of the State for that matter).

-Keith

[cookepuss]

Website design is in the same ballpark as my game-dev ventures; want to start out making a better site for myself, then who knows....
A workflow I've found to be good for creating web sites is the following:

1) Mission statement is #1. What message are you trying to send to you audience. Find that out and that'll determine your focus.
2) Hand write (or type) a sitemap that outlines the functionality of your site.
3) Decide which sections are most critical and which ones can be buried/shifted across the menu.
4) Doodle concepts, logos, and layouts on paper. I usually go through lots of concepts before I find one that works. Make sure to show this concept to somebody who has never seen it. If they can't grasp or mentally navigate it without your help then you've got to get back to the drawing board.
5) Hit Photoshop and prototype your chosen concept. This will let you determine exactly how feasible it is even before you touch any HTML. The added bonus to this is that you can often slice, dice, or otherwise reuse assets you create at this stage. Mock the whole darn thing up. It's an effort, but it's worth it, on a visual level.
6) Take whatever you've done in PS and implement it in your HTML app, using whatever assets you can salvage from the last phase. If at all possible, try to avoid layers and custom CSS special effects. They do work and are helpful in certain cases, but they're not treated with any sort of equality across the range of browsers.
7) Test the hell out of your site. I use 4 browser. (IE, Firefox, Opera, & Safari)

Like a game or a CG model, half of the battle is in the planning. Above all else... Keep It Simple, Stupid. :)

The biggest bump we're (3 of us) having right now, in getting our project started, is starting and finishing the Game Design Doc.
Yeah. That's always a rough spot. I started programming when I was just a 7 year old kid. Like lots of kids in the 1980s, I was absolutely mesmerized by arcade games. Being they type of person I am, I didn't just want to play them. I wanted to make them.

This was before affordable home PCs too. Don't ask me how, but my Dad somehow got a Commodore 64 before it actually hit the stores. Again, being the 80s, practically the whole block was envious. When you're a scrawny nerd of a kid, that kinda thing is like a badge of honor. :)

As you know, when you're a kid, everything has to be now and not later. So, I broke my bedtime and plotted my little pixel space ships on graph paper by the light of our "gigantic" 19" TV. I doodled these angular mountain ranges and came up with these little explosion thingies. I sat my pasty 7 year old butt in front of my shiny new Commodore 64 and hacked out assembly language code for days, saving data back and forth to the audio cassette drive.

After probably about 2 weeks of programming, a time frame which was typical back then, my "masterpiece" was done and ready to play. I called it.... "Space Case." I remember unveiling my pride & joy to my 5 year old brother and my Dad.

I'm not sure if they remember this story, but their response is something I'll never forget. Almost simultaneously, the said, "Defender!!!"

SONOFABITCH!!!! :D :D

The moral of this story, enthusiasm is great. Planning and research are even better. :)

You've got a concept. That's great. Now break it down into discreet components. What's the goal? How are the players rewarded? What's unique about the concept? What's on Level 3 that's not on Level 1? How does a player gain or lose energy?

If it affects gameplay, the specs, or the overall presentation... write it down. Pretend that you're back in school and are now outlining a term paper. Start with that thesis statement, your concept. Build it as an outline of elements, stages, and characters. Expand each section. Expand each expanded section with as much detail as possible. Flowchart the game's flow, from start to finish. Make sure to branch out as appropriate. Before you know it, your game will practically be built on paper and you'll have a full spec. If you've done it right, it'll practically be its own book.

After that, you just have to schedule each outlined component and stick to the schedule. It isn't always easy, but there's good project management software out there. Commercially, you could use MS Project. However, there's also some quality freeware and open source stuff like Open Workbench that'll suffice. http://www.openworkbench.org/

Never underestimate the power and necessity of a design bible. Creating a decent spec is just about being an anal retentive, micro-managing control freak. Obsess with the small details. That's what creating a spec is really about.

After that "Defender" incident, I learned to plan out stuff a bit more thoroughly. My last "lone wolf" homebrew game was a RPG for the PC and the Gameboy color. The design bible came out to about 250 pages or so. That's before the art bible btw.

Obviously, I'm far less into the programming end of this stuff nowadays, but the lessons I learned from that creative misstep in the 80s have served me well on every project since.

I used to have an extensive collection of game design and programming books. Lots of stuff by Andre Lamothe and such. Books that once cost me $60, but can now be obtained for $1. :) Sadly, the technical info therein became so outdated that I eventually dumped them. I probably shouldn't since the chapters on theory and design bibles still hold true today.

So, since I can't donate those oldies to you, the best I can do is point you to some new ones.

Here's an updated version of a book I had about 10 years ago:
Game Architecture and Design: A New Edition (http://www.amazon.com/Game-Architecture-Design-Riders-Games/dp/0735713634/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221536465&sr=8-1)

Here's a recent release that I've been hearing some good stuff about:
The Ultimate Guide to Video Game Writing and Design (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Guide-Video-Writing-Design/dp/158065066X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221536628&sr=8-1)

My biggest piece of advice to you, apart from the notion of planning, is to play to your strengths. Build off of whatever knowledge you've accumulated thus far. The worse design that you could ever implement is one that exceeds your capabilities. I mean, there's nothing wrong with growing with each project. However, if you've got this super design that's got feature creep out the wazoo and will take 6 years for 3 guys to implement.... Maybe you've got to scale back a bit.

I once had this great idea for a superhero RPG. However, for me to implement it alone would have probably taken the better part of a decade. Thankfully, I valued my mental health. :)

By the way; there are a few free games on our site, if you want to blow a few minutes of what little time you have left
Yeah. I was at your site earlier. Solid design. Not overly pretty, but functional and logically laid out. I'd say that the big problem with the site is that the images are not too friendly to those on various bandwidths. You've got some images that clock in at close to half a meg, which isn't quite ideal for load times. If you've got Photoshop, always use the "Save as Web" feature instead of the standard "Save As" dialog. You'll save lots of file space. A JPG cranked down to 60% is more than enough for most jobs. If the images are too large, physically, slice them up and stitch them together as a background in a table of fixed dimensions. Tables are a good way to get a uniform layout that plays well to multiple browsers.

As far as the games go. Sticking with the basics always serves you well early on. I make fun of my old "Defender" clone, but there's a lot you can learn by emulating an oldie. Personally, I'm a big fan of your "OG Sweeper" game. I can't tell you how many times I ditched classes in college just to hang out and play that game. (Anything to avoid my Ancient Greek language professor.) The load time on "OG Sweeper" is probably a bit excessive for a game of that type, especially on my 2.83GHz Quad Core with 8GB RAM. The default texture tiles could have benefited from a simple, more straight forward approach. However, the game is as solid as I remember. I really dig the explosions. :)

~~Rob~~

[KeithC]

More great insight!

The website design was hashed out over a period of a few months (off and on); I wanted something more compact than my first site I put together (Ozark Games (http://www.ozarkgames.com/mainsite/Home.html)). I have just recently upgraded to high-speed internet; for the last few years I have been on dial-up, including the time I put together and uploaded the BDG site (took about a half hour). The graphics could definately use a good trimming (size-wise); just haven't had the time. It's been so long since I've used the FTP (and I had to clear out my cookies to get the DSL working on my comp), that I've got to contact GoDaddy for my password info again. Just one more thing to add to the list! :uhh:

I'm hoping to get quite a few of the "little" things done before the winter hits, so I can start getting a handle on development again. Got our 3rd little one on the way in November, so time will be even less for anything related to computer work (still have to paint his room, and get everything ready....more diapers, yay!).

As far as the tips with tools using Photoshop; I'm still on Paint Shop Pro at the moment. I'll be getting Photoshop before a new 3D app though (I'd like to save the money to get the whole CS package though). In the meantime, I'm spending around $65 to upgrade my PSP one more time (Using Version X).

Thanks for the comments on OGSweeper (we kept the name as a sort of "homage" to our original endeavor....Ozark Games). My brother did all the scripting/logic for it (and that nice little explosion bit); I made all the graphics, and our Father (who left us holding the bag with OG, and the main reason we had to move on to another avenue.....yada yada) made the music. I actually had no idea how to play minesweeper before this! My wife is a minesweeper wiz though.:D

The other game (Paradise Lost) was our first; I made those graphics (and heli animations) when I first started out with PSP (didn't even know what 3D was yet). The concept behind that was to create something like the old River Raid (used to play that till the sun came up!), in that it goes on forever...although I made a few bosses for it.

There is another game we now offer, though it was put together by one person (our newest "3rd"): Affliction (http://www.blackdracogames.com/forums/index.php?topic=220). I haven't taken the time to put it on the main site yet, so you'll have to grab it from that Forum thread.

All those game were made with GameMaker, so slow load times and a few other problems are chalked up to the engine; though we all hold licenses for TGB (Torque Game Builder), and will be using that for most of our future 2D endeavors (including more Freebies).

We're definately aiming for a more casual market; due largely to (as you pointed out) our size, as well as our individual time we can put towards any project and still have time for our own dev work.

I've still got to finish work on a friend's project: S3D (site's down, so I can't point you to any images at the moment). It's a tool for an engine called FPSCreator (from the Game Creators). Basically it lets you re-texture exisiting segments and view them in a real-time atmosphere...instead of firing up FPSC everytime you make a change. I did the custom textures for him (the brick wall is one of them), and I'm doing the UV Maps....which is very tedious, since we're talking a couple hundred of them. Not hard...just a lot of clicks per map, to get them into UU3D, then get them into PSP to "Color-code" them (kind of a paint by numbers thing)...all the while maintaining the folder structures. This is an example of a project I'll never accept again.:thumb: I'm getting $200 total for it, though he already sent me $100 of it awhile back. Fortunately for me, he's pretty casual with the time-frame of it all; as I had offered to finish the work without further payment, because of taking so long with it's completion (4 months of the Corrections Officer Academy and 2 military schools have sucked up my time, recently).

I won't be doing any contract work for awhile, till I know I have the time to work on something. Till then, I'll just make a few things for Turbosquid and the like.

Thanks for the links to those books; I'll have to give then a look.:)

-Keith

[McPandaBurger]

Worlds longest post thread? :P

[McPandaBurger]

Interesting reading though

[KeithC]

Worlds longest post thread?

I'm afraid Cookepuss would win that particular comp. :)

[cookepuss]

As far as the tips with tools using Photoshop; I'm still on Paint Shop Pro at the moment.
More or less the same sort of workflow where it counts. Photoshop is more refined and has a lot of features for print artists, but PSP is very capable in the RGB realm of things. It'll get the job done.

I'll be getting Photoshop before a new 3D app though (I'd like to save the money to get the whole CS package though).
The Master Collection is about $2,500. I've got it. I can tell you that you might not need every program in there. If video editing, compositing, and sound aren't a big deal to you, you could actually opt for the $1,800 Design Collection instead. That has Flash, Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Acrobat, Illustrator, Fireworks, & InDesign. That should cover your needs and then some. Even then, you probably won't need something like

Alternatively, there are actually some very good shareware apps that could fill out your toolbox.

Inkscape for your vector graphics needs.
Jahshaka for your compositing & video editing needs.
Audacity for basic sound editing.
Virtualdub for single track video editing.

TONS of good opensource apps that'll fill those functionality gaps. You don't always have to spend pro dollars to get pro power.

and our Father (who left us holding the bag with OG, and the main reason we had to move on to another avenue.....yada yada)
Nuff said. I've been there. Family is like that some times.

All those game were made with GameMaker, so slow load times and a few other problems are chalked up to the engine
Kinda what I figured. Probably a data unpacking or engine overhead issue. Those sorts of engines are like that.

I'm getting $200 total for it, though he already sent me $100 of it awhile back. Fortunately for me, he's pretty casual with the time-frame of it all; as I had offered to finish the work without further payment, because of taking so long with it's completion (4 months of the Corrections Officer Academy and 2 military schools have sucked up my time, recently).
Words of wisdom...

1) Sell yourself short now and you'll be doing it forever, if you're not careful.
2) Your time is worth money. Learning experiences and career moves aren't always valid excuses for taking less pay than you deserve. You're sacrificing time away from your wife and kids. If you're earning less than minimum wage for your efforts you might as well work at McDonalds. That'll teach you a lesson in frustration too.
3) Any work you do, with a friend or otherwise, MUST be under contract. You have to make it clear what your responsibilities and expectations are, as well as the other guy's. Anything else will lead to court, soured relationships, or torched reputations. Any respectable business person will agree to working with contracts. If they refuse, run the other way. I wouldn't even work with/for my own father without a valid contract. Business is business. Friendships and relationships get checked at the door. Verbal contracts are nice. Written ones are better. There's no blood thicker than ink.
4) Always remember, you may not be indespensible or irreplacable, but you are in a position of power. If somebody hires you or wants to hire you that means that they need you. Even at your skill level, have enough confidence in your abilities to know that you're not just some scrub who'll take $200 just because that's what was thrown your way.
5) Don't expect that final $100 anyway. It'd be nice to get, but without any sort of contact there's no guarantee of payment beyond the intitial advance. Your friend may be a nice guy and may indeed hold to his end of the deal, but people are people. Not everybody pays up, especially if they can find valid excuses to avoid doing so.
6) I know that your friend has been understanding of the fact that your schedule has been strained, but never ammend the terms of the contract just because you're being a nice guy or you feel bad. The old saying is true. Nice guys finish last. Don't set the precedent of willing to do business in anything other than a professional manner.

Right now, you can probably take the hit and make the mistakes because this stuff is more of a hobby than a business. However, if you indeed get serious, you have to remember that it doesn't matter if you're a small guy or a big studio. Business has no friends. It only has contacts and practices, which are as good as currency. Invest and thrive. Splurge and waste. Metaphorically speaking, of course. Sounds heartless, but every smile, handshake, business lunch, or friendly joke is an tactical. It's a game of sorts. I've been friendly with people I've done work for, but I'd never mistake them for my friends. That's how you get used or abused. Like I said, business has no friends. Everybody has an agenda, even if they go about it in the nicest of ways.

I'm afraid Cookepuss would win that particular comp.
That's just the way I am. :)

[KeithC]

Yep, it's nice to be able to make mistakes and not have to worry about putting bread on the table at the same time. I'm not too worried with this guy though; this project of his is a part-time thing (he works full-time at an IT company on the West Coast) that he's funded entirely with money generated from a previous project (related to the FPSC engine as well). He's already got the other elements paid for (GUI, etc.); just waiting on me. I also included a small intro/tutorial to UV mapping for him to include in the package (just a quick intro into the basic principles, using the old globe of the world as an example). He's offered numerous times to pay the rest upfront, but I've refused till I get the rest of it delivered to him. Learning experience for me, I suppose.

Anyways, I'll probably stick with an updated version of PSP for now; and an update to my WYSIWYG web page maker.

The words o' wisdom are very much appreciated; coming from someone who's gone through the growing pains already. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions for you and the other fine people here, in the future (and maybe answer a few myself, eventually). :thumb:

-Keith

[Kalango]

i get drowzy only for seeing these posts(never read em) anyways...welcome keith...if i'm not mistaken i remeber you from gamespace forums...
how is it doing with the truespace test anyway? (dont answer if you already did on previous posts xD...)

[KeithC]

I thought your name looked familiar; yes, it's me from the GameSpace Forums (too bad all that knowledge is now gone....rather a waste I think). Good to see a familiar face!

I rarely step in on the Beta Testing anymore with TrueSpace; though I do still peruse the Beta Forums. Originally I had intended on making a series of objects to be included in the GameSpace 2 library; but since GS2 is no longer in the cards, I felt it would have been a waste of my time. As far as I can see, testing is still plugging along (though there were a few bumps when we were told Caligari was being bought by MS).

What have you been up to?

-Keith

[Kalango]

Not much since then.... never atached to GS too much...but now i'm testing TS76 and its quite a nice app.. and its free :). Geez...too bad GS2 is not on the road anymore...and i saw that the forums are off...too bad...good to see a survivor tho. Start posting some of your wostuff and start wiping :p!

[KeithC]

Yep; I'll be posting some work pretty soon (assuming I can get a few spare minutes (may have to try that scheduling thing ;)) for everyone to tear apart/comment on. Probably concentrate on Lightwave though.

-Keith

[Amethyst]

Haha, we only give encouragement and valuable critique...... Looking forward to see what you "create":thumb: :)

[cookepuss]

Quite, quite true, Barbara. At the same time, a valuable critique isn't always an encouraging one. You CAN encourage them and urge them forward. In fact, that's one of the key ingredients to a community such as this, not just networking. Sometimes a good critique is about ripping that band-aid off and exposing everything underneath.

I can be harsh at times. I admit it. However, that's only because I'm a firm believer in the "spare the rod, spoil the child" sort of critiques. As long as the criticisms are honest, fair, and diplomatically phrased, I don't see much harm in giving it to you straight. More often than not, especially on other forums, people are more willing to tell you what you want to hear instead of what you need to hear.

Do I mind people telling me that "x" or "y" aspect of something I've done just plain stinks? No. Actually, I tend to appreciate it. That's how you grow. If everybody just told me, "Great work. Attaboy." I'd never learn anything. Harsh critique CAN hurt. However, you can easily become too close to something to be objective. A fresh pair of eyes is essential, especially if they've got nothing to gain by stroking your ego.

So, yeah. Show us your stuff. Let us tear into ....errr... critique it. :)

[KeithC]

I appreciate the warm welcome from everyone. I also appreciate honest criticism, even if it sounds harsh. It is the only way I'll learn properly. I'm tired of "spinning my wheels". What little time I have should be concentrated on doing things the right way (including methodology).

At any rate; I look forward to checking out everyone else's work as well. Does anyone here use Lightwave for game-media?

-Keith

[KeithC]

Just to lay it out, my current aspirations are for game development (2D and 3D) of an "Indie" flavor.

In that case, you can use whatever the heck you like.

Just one more thing I neglected to respond to earlier.

Even though I'm doing this as an "Indie" hobby for now; if I do go pro at some point in my life, I'd like to have a knowledge base already built with a standard such as Max, Maya, C4D, etc. already in place. Which is why I'll be gravitating towards industry-standard tools (such as Max, Photoshop, Mudbox/Z-Brush, etc.). Just to clarify.

If I decide to go full-time with this stuff, I'd like to pick it up without the inconvenience of having to start the learning curve from scratch. I believe I've taken the first step by coming here. :thumb:

-Keith

[Amethyst]

.... and I'm curious to see your second step, third and so on....:)