SCULPTING MINICOMPS? Contribute your thoughts here!

[blankslatejoe]

Hi Everyone,
So, the mods here on Game Artisans.org have been tossing around the idea of yet another minicomp system to go along with the 3d ones and the 2d ones. We're currently considering 'scuplting' as a 'theme'.

Sculpting comps would be modeling exercises done entirely in Zbrush, Mudbox, Silo, or one of the other sculpting tools out there. They would lend themselves well to our minicomp system and current game art expectations.

We could either pass out a basemesh for everyone to start from, or just give out a theme and let people run with it on their own--no basemesh. Or we could switch between the two from time to time.

Either way, unlike the other minis there'd be no concepts, no normal maps, no textures, none of any of that stuff--just raw sculpting.

This thread is for people to chime in with their thoughts as how things would be handled, what the scope of the topics should be, and etc.

So...thoughts?

EDITED: changed the focus of this Thread from Speed Modeling to Sculpting, so if some of the replies seem like they're focused on Speed Modeling, that's why. It looks like Sculpting would be a wiser choice for the next mini than speed modeling :)

[blankslatejoe]

And just to kick things off:



Here's my thoughts:
-Speed models would have NO-TEXTURES and simply be gray shaded models that you come up with in an hour or two (or whatever the time limit is).
-There would be no highres sculpting in these comps. (perhaps in the future we can have a separate mini system devoted to sculpts?).

Here's my questions and concerns:

-Should speed models be super low poly?
-Should there even be a poly count limit, since it's just raw modeling?
-half the fun of Speed Modeling is that the models are done super quick--but we'd be depending on people to be honest in reporting that a model took under an hour, or under 2 or etc. Is that ok?
-to accommodate that speed concern, perhaps the speed modeling minis only last for one or two days--but then people might miss out on being able to participate if its in the middle of the week, or they're particularly busy during those days...

[3d_er]

I saw some speed modeling threads before. I also saw some sculpting threads. In my honest opinion, if a new comp is being thought up, I'd vote for the non-textured sculpting challenge with no hourly time limit. It's really easy these days to sculpt something in zbrush. If there are no worries about normal mapping and texturing, I think this would be a very fun series of challenges.

[Draxxuss]

I'm all for mini-comps and competitions in general, my only concern is oversaturation. I'd hate to have people get spread out too much and get burned out as the mini comps seem to really be doing well right now. I realize it is only a short period of time but it is still an extra comp.

Don't get me wrong.. I'd probably be in most of these. :) But then again... I'm insane.

Another problem I have seen with speed threads is the blatant lack of honesty. I would say that at least 75% of the artists do the stuff in the allotted time.. but you can usually tell who spent more time on it than the others. There are many seasoned pros on the forums and they've got a pretty good idea how long things should take to create. It's just one of those things that are really hard to manage as there is no real way to monitor it.

Also .. using base meshes that the artist may already have on his computer is a sure fire way to speed up time... and cheat. The only way to fix that is to have something as a topic that no one would have a base mesh of... So I would stay away from traditional biped characters.

Anyhow.. just my opinion.


btw..I would say no poly limit and no sculpting.

[dimperioa]

I am not sure where to post this, but saw this thread about the mini challenges...

I was wondering if anyone can tell me how I would become informed before/when challenges are going to start because I would like to enter some if I have time, but usually see that challenges have started and it's often too late for me to enter anything worth while.

Is there a way to be emailed about 3-D challenges or something?

Any answers would be appreciated, thanks.

[blankslatejoe]

dimperioa - if you check the root game artisans forum page (http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/index.php) there's little thumbnails to the right announcing any minicomp events (new minis, voting starting, etc). Also, Fred's been making newsletters every so often that'll announce some of the minis, but usually that's in line with some other announcements.

[Shadownami92]

So a speed modeling competition would be polymodelling with a shorter time limit? Or are we talking about speed sculpting? Either one sounds like a good idea. And maybe rather than have all of them go on all the time they can go in some specific order with 1 3d and 1 2d competition going on at 1 time.

[BigJohn]

-There would be no highres sculpting in these comps. (perhaps in the future we can have a separate mini system devoted to sculpts?).

Oh man, you guys are killing me. I've been begging for a sculpting competition.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time picturing a game-art speed modeling competition. Seems to me that the whole point of low-poly modeling is to best describe the shapes you're looking for with as few tris as possible. So the process becomes time consuming mostly from figuring which polys should stay and which can go. Then if you're asking if there should even be a poly limit (which I think there shouldn't) then why not allow a sculpt? (did I mention I'd love to have sculpting mini-comps already? :) )

As for the time limit and the honor thing. A format that I've seen that I think works pretty well, is to give the whole competition a very short time-frame of 1 week, and then require people to submit say 2 or 3 "finished" speedsculpts in the thread as WIPs. Then when the deadline hits, they pick one of those and submit just that as their entry.

So say I have 1 week to come up with an alien bust, and I know I'll have to do atleast 2-3 sculpts, then I'll do my research and do one-a-night during whichever nights I have free time. Eventually there will be one that I like, and that's what I'll submit. You know people couldn't spend 20+ hours on a sculpt, since they have to deliver 3.

[Shadownami92]

Oh man, you guys are killing me. I've been begging for a sculpting competition.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time picturing a game-art speed modeling competition. Seems to me that the whole point of low-poly modeling is to best describe the shapes you're looking for with as few tris as possible. So the process becomes time consuming mostly from figuring which polys should stay and which can go. Then if you're asking if there should even be a poly limit (which I think there shouldn't) then why not allow a sculpt? (did I mention I'd love to have sculpting mini-comps already? :) )

As for the time limit and the honor thing. A format that I've seen that I think works pretty well, is to give the whole competition a very short time-frame of 1 week, and then require people to submit say 2 or 3 "finished" speedsculpts in the thread as WIPs. Then when the deadline hits, they pick one of those and submit just that as their entry.

So say I have 1 week to come up with an alien bust, and I know I'll have to do atleast 2-3 sculpts, then I'll do my research and do one-a-night during whichever nights I have free time. Eventually there will be one that I like, and that's what I'll submit. You know people couldn't spend 20+ hours on a sculpt, since they have to deliver 3.

Sounds good but that's only as long as each sculpt has the same about of time taken on them, rather than possibly rush 2 in one night and have them be poorer quality and have 1 take the most time so its the best quality, they finish the required 3 and still get 1 done with more time than the competition may expect.

[Elcura]

A suggestion on how to help against cheaters would be to take a printscreen picture of your desktop clock and post it in the thread. When 2 hours are up, you take another printscreen as proof and post up the rest of your progress renders.

This way you can check the time people started against the time people finished. There's still some who can get around this, but honestly the effort taken to cheat with this measure is one you could just put into modelling instead.

All in all, regardless of methods used, I think it's a great idea.

[Draxxuss]

I think the vast majority of artists here can very quickly alter the time of a clock on a printscreen... good idea but still not really a way to stop cheaters.


The fact is, you can't. I'm a pretty optimistic person most of the time but when it comes to relying on truth of others ... over the internet... it can get sketchy. I would hope that the simple quest for the continuation of increasing skillsets in a friendly environment would be enough for people to monitor their own work and submit in the required time alotted to them, but I think that would not be the case for all.

One method I have seen for speed sculpting (ztool etc) is that everyone is given the same base mesh to start with. This is great as everyone begins on the same level, no one starts with a mesh of their own from previous comps, no one is stuck trying to come up with an idea for a base mesh, etc.

I suppsoe the biggest problem is submission time. I wonder if it could be setup under race constraints... you know... On your mark, get set, go! type of thing. Everyone starts at the same time and then submits at the same time. Obviously the main problem with this is time zones. But I'd be interested to see that if this start date was presented far enough ahead of time, if people would schedule time in their own lives to take part in it or not regardless of when it occured during the day.

Here is another thought. A proposed start "day" is planned, let's say Saturday. People who are interested will give a time slot that they will be available to participate. ie from 12 noon until 2:00 pm (if it is a 2 hour comp). Someone else may choose a time later in the day, it doesn't matter. With everyone's time slot submitted, it is then up to the moderator to send out the base mesh and instructions, via email, 10 minutes before the time slot to allow the artist time to check things over, brainstorm, etc. The artist then has the time that he has already committed to previously and must submit it, via email, to the moderator. He also has a 10 minute window to accomplish this submission (screencap and crop in PS, save as jpg and required size,etc). Once all of the jpg's have been recieved by the moderator, it is up to him to simply place each one in the voting thread and then announce the voting booth open. I think this is the most fair way to handle it as people start off with the same mesh and have to stick to a predetermined time slot.
This method could also be sued for any 2d speed comps as well.

What do you guys think?

I'm also on thinking that speed modeling may not work as well for this as speed sculpting would.

[Kalango]

speed modelling could be either realy low poly stuff or extra high poly stuff(considering sculpting). With no textures or rigging, more to practice etc. Like joe said, given a theme or idea, simple stuff to spend some hours and build up some better skills in speed and workflow.

[FredH]

Actually, I thought speed modeling was a sculpting challenge. So when I talked with Joe, I guess it's my bad for the confusion:flag: I meant a sculpting challenge:D

Speed modeling would be too hard to moderate and yeah, people would probably put more time into their entries to make it look good.

[Japhir]

sculpting challenges sound really cool. would be great if we'd have a theme, and a simple basemesh and gogogo :D.

[FredH]

A base mesh for each challenge and people can't deviate too much from the original shape? This sounds like a good idea Japhir. Before each comp, perhaps there can be a suggestions thread for a new topic, and people can submit some simple base mesh ideas in this thread so that Joe doesn't always have to make one.

[BigJohn]

Oh sweet, so it is a sculpting challenge after all. My wishes come true :)

I like what I'm hearing here. With the base-mesh and all.

One question though, why is it important to make it only take 2 hours for the sculpt and that's it?

I think if there was no time limit, but the competition was pretty short (no more than one week), it would have the same effect. And if someone finishes it real fast, then just make another one. I'm pretty sure I'll do more than one anyways, just so I have stuff to pick from. That way there's no pressure, nobody will be pointing fingers, and no scrutiny.

[sogeking]

IMHO speed challenge must be something very simple and more focused on the art side, especially the basic one. sculpting (3D) and sketching (2D) maybe. so we dont have to waste time on uv, rig, baking normals, seams, and anything technical.

so if someone's intention is to create portfolio, they'll still join the main or mini comps.

[FredH]

BigJohn, I doubt there would be an hourly time limit for sculpting. You'd have from the Start-Date to the End-Date to complete a sketch or finalized model.

[Parnell]

I think the scoring of the speed comps would need to be much lower than the typical mini-comps. As texturing, UV, posing etc just requires so much more than a simple 4 hour sculpt. I just wonder also if this could be better served as a one time mini-comp done for every 3rd mini-comp or something.
I'm also a little concerned with "cheating" perhaps give everyone a basemesh to start from , like the SDK comp. Then the ZTL or mudbox file would have to be submitted so the moderators could roll back the steps to sub-division 1. It's still possible to cheat with a projection but a little tricky and probably not worth it for most people.

Whatever it's worth I'm glad to see people discussing this.
B

[Draxxuss]

I was just thinking... I don't think this issue of cheating ever comes up with the mini comps or regular comps.... funny that it is so prevalent this time around.

[BigJohn]

BigJohn, I doubt there would be an hourly time limit for sculpting. You'd have from the Start-Date to the End-Date to complete a sketch or finalized model.

Ahh yeah, that's what I thought.

Gotta tell you, this sounds so sweet. I really can't wait to get started on this :)

[blankslatejoe]

WOO! Sculpting comps make much more sense to me too than speed modeling!

Me and fred had our terminology wrong it seems--as sculpting seems to be what he intended for the new minis. Both kinds of minis are fun and have been done successfully on other forums, but I agree a sculpting comp lends itself much better to our minicomp system and current game art expectations.

Perhaps we can do the speed modeling stuff later or something, but let's refocus this discussion purely on sculpting minis then.

I think then perhaps we'd NOT have any time limits for sculpting comps--so it wouldn't be 'speed' related.

We could either pass out a basemesh for everyone to start from, or just give out a theme and let people run with it on their own--no basemesh. Or we could switch between the two from time to time.

Either way, unlike the other minis there'd be no concepts, no normal maps, no textures, none of any of that stuff--just raw sculpting.

Thoughts?

[Shadownami92]

I like the whole idea along with everyone given the same base mesh, but just for clarification this would mean no sub tools correct? Or would some challenges have 1 or 2 base meshes for sub tools? that might be interesting. Have 3 base meshes and see which ones are used for the main tool and which ones are used as props.

[FredH]

Like Joe suggested, I like the switching between two types of sculpting comps. Sometimes, it's just a theme, and sometime a basemesh is given to get people started and artists cannot deviate too much from the original shape (yes, this is part of the challenge).

In term of start dates, I was thinking that both 3d challenges should never sync up. So each 3d mini will start in the middle of the other one so if ThatDon starts one this weekend, the sculpting mini will start sometime around Thursday. I don't expect people to enter both challenges, but if they do, at least they can organize themselves so that they can compete in both for their portfolios.

[walrus]

It's too bad you couldn't do that with the major challenges, as well. In a way there's too much stuff going on right now, what with the Battleship, Pokemon, and Unearthly challenges all coinciding. I pretty much ended up having to drop out of the Unearthly to allow time for the other two. (But maybe that's just my own personal time management deficiencies, trying to balance family life, a full time job, 2 freelance contract jobs, and 3 challenges! :) )

[FredH]

ah, true, there is a lot going on. It's really up to the artist to pick the comps that he/she believes is most useful to his/her current needs. For instance, my 2d skills need improvement, so I'll be sticking around the 2d area of GA for a while and avoid the 3d comps. Of course, we all can't be like Walrus.. good at everything hehe:D

[BigJohn]

This sounds absolutely perfect. Just what I've been wishing for.

I also really like the idea of the two 3d minis never syncing.

And the no-time-limit on the sculpt sounds great too. Only thing is that I think the actual competition should be fairly short. Maybe one week for the comp and one week for voting. But that's just me.

Good stuff here

[Parnell]

ah, true, there is a lot going on. It's really up to the artist to pick the comps that he/she believes is most useful to his/her current needs. For instance, my 2d skills need improvement, so I'll be sticking around the 2d area of GA for a while and avoid the 3d comps. Of course, we all can't be like Walrus.. good at everything hehe:D

I hear that Fred! I too have been eyeballing the 2d minis more-so recently. As for Walrus being too busy, it is clearly a time deficiency. He just needs to cut out the obvious, SLEEP. SO overrated.
B

[BigJohn]

Walrus this, Walrus that... I think we need some John time. How about we make a mini-comp where people do a character according to what they think I look like?

[FredH]

There there John, you are also special to us in your own unique way, but Walrus is just so much more sexier:p

[blankslatejoe]

Walrus this, Walrus that... I think we need some John time. How about we make a mini-comp where people do a character according to what they think I look like?

BRILLIANT!

[sogeking]

ah, true, there is a lot going on. It's really up to the artist to pick the comps that he/she believes is most useful to his/her current needs. For instance, my 2d skills need improvement, so I'll be sticking around the 2d area of GA for a while and avoid the 3d comps. Of course, we all can't be like Walrus.. good at everything hehe:D

i either have to improve my 2d skill, do we have other group training for this such as daily sketch, or we just stick in to the mini challenge?

[Ged]

sculpting mini-comps sound excellent, I would love to brush up on my scupting skills and try out some of the new apps features, like mudbox2009s paint tools etc. Actually would people be judged purely on modelling/sculpting or would people also be allowed to paint/polypaint their sculpt? that would make a huge difference to the quality of the results. also would people be allowed to do multi layer renders in zbrush and put them together in photoshop? that would also add alot of professional shine to a mini comp.

[FredH]

sogeking - We were thinking of running a pure sketching mini comp series with no coloring, but decided to hold off on it until sometime in the future.

Ged - For the scultpting challenge, coloring will most likely be banned. Colors would give too much of an advantage over single colored models. As for multi layers in zbrush and ps, I am not sure. That's up to Joe:)

[blankslatejoe]

Hm...my thoughts on it are like this;
I think the multi-tools and layers thing would depend on the individual comp. If it's a start-with-a-base mesh comp, where we hand out meshes, then no, no subtools (for non zbrush peoples, those are secondary meshes you can load in, or cut away from and sculpt with). We'd want the sculpting to be all one piece, since that's part of that exercise.

But for the other minis, any minis where it's just sculpt-however-you-see-fit, it would be no holds barred.

But yea, no color quite yet. We could perhaps try allowing it once or twice in one of these in the future, but let's just focus on the sculpting for the first couple of months.
:)

[Maph]

I'm all in favour for plain sculpting, no color, no fancy rendering. As you can't hide mistakes that way. :)

[Shadownami92]

Maybe add the extra requirement of a video link of a turn-table of the sculpt xD

Or else you could possibly hide mistakes :D

Or would that be getting too complex and paranoid?

[temmink]

I think the turn-table idea is probably a bit extreme, its bandwidth intensive and onerous... not a bad suggestion but it just means a fair bit of extra work for a minicomp submission. I would suggest a couple of angles but really we shouldn't be worrying about people 'hiding' mistakes, if you can't see it and it is a purely artistic sculpt then there are no mistakes in my opinion... physical sculpters leave bits unfinished all the time...

Otherwise I would love to get involved in some sculpy comps, sounds like a blast. I agree with the general consensus so far. Looking forward to hearing more.

[blankslatejoe]

Well, it seems like we've got a pretty good idea of what these minis will be like. I'll probably be launching the first one over the weekend probably.

Now, as with the other minis, people occasionally suggest topics and I've written them all down--I pull ideas from that list from time to time, but a lot of them may not make as good sculpt themes.

So, I'd like to get a similar list of topics to sculpt--suggestions?

[temmink]

So, I'd like to get a similar list of topics to sculpt--suggestions?

I'm going to vote for 80's Action Hero Busts/Heads, Stallone as Rambo, Arnie as Conan, Van Damme, Lundgren, Willis as John McClane... I reckon it would be a bit of fun...

Some other ideas:

Gargoyles
Alien Skulls
Diablo
Mummies
Zombies
Ultra High Detail Hand
Armor detailingLooking forward to what people come up with.

[stimpack]

This sounds great. Id deffinately join this more than the others. I do things from concept to completion daily for work, so any free time I have, i just want to make art with out having to set up a final coposition ect ect. Just letn the art juices flow is how i relax and this seems very friendly to that! Hell i did the comicon challenge, finished and never posted my entry b/c i lost interest in putting it all together to present haha. i know....lazy

anywho, ideas being vauge would be fun. Some thing like "naturally occuring cake" or " life goal thief" just something that isnt as concrete as "alien" ya kno? It gives people a wider range to be creative. Those topics like that would probly only be usefull for the challenges that dont start with a basemesh.

looking foward to this...

[Mogster]

id love to... if i could sculpt lol got silo but havent even played with it yet with sculpting :/

[pixelmitherer]

This sounds excellent!:thumb:

I'd have sculpting challenges run for a week, with no strict time limit.
At the end you would submit a few screen captures of your final sculpt from different angles. Just my 2 cents!:D

From a low-poly premade basemesh, it would be interesting to see the different directions people had gone in creatively.

[BigJohn]

Is this gonna be a halloween themed comp?

Either way, some ideas:
Myths & Legends (things like Bloody Mary, Bigfoot etc)
Half-man half-animal
Dead Presidents (Lincoln, Washington, basically all those guys from the dollar bills, I think this would be great for a bust)
One Eyed, One Horned, Flying Purple People Eater (heard this song a while ago and thought it may be cool to see what people come up with for this thing)
Fat Guy/Gal

[MostlyToad]

dead presidents and flying purple people eater sound like awesome topics

[blankslatejoe]

actually bigjohn, fred asked me to hold off a couple of weeks before I start this mini--just to let UC finish up first. Makes sense to me--that's the contest with all the prizes, and the minis do pull quite a bit of attention.

so, it probably won't be a halloween one--but ill hold on to the ideas

[BigJohn]

that's cool. actually, I wanna enter the 3d mini that's going on now, so it works out well for me :)

[Shadownami92]

Thanksgiving theme: Sculpt your own Turkey monster :D

[butt_sahib]

Sounds like a great idea froe (thats joe and fred together :D)

lol @ nami