Any Advice?

[LittleKnownDude]

Hey im new the forum and new to game artistry in general. Im an aspiring 3d modeler and animator with very little knownledge. Any advice on helping me get off the ground and actually learn something? And sadly to say i have a very very very low budget.:cry:

Thanks In Advance
LKD

PS. If your going to tell me this isnt the place for me save you typing. I learned that by looking at the level of art displayed in these forums. I really dont need you to tell me that. :o

[zeke3d]

how old are you? what is your situation? are you an artist by nature? why do you want to do this, what industry do you see yourself in? how much time are you willing to invest? is it something you must do, no matter what?

[LittleKnownDude]

In high school, yes, ive always wanted to make video games, 3d modeling and animation, over 20 hours a week, and no but i think i would really enjoy doing it.

My life is mostly free time so I can dedicate alot of time to it. By the way ive read a couple of articles about different game industry jobs and was given the advice of finding a mentor already in the industry. I guess what i am saying is if anyone has the free time i would really apreciate it.

And yes i know i have a long time before I have to get a job and your going to be working for the rest of your life just wait and so on. I've been given that speach ever since i started wanting to get a job. I really think of this differently its not just to learn so i can get a job and make money its because this is really something i can see myself doing in the future and enjoying doing it. Im the person that always want to have something i can work on that i enjoy and sitting around all day on the computer doing absolutely nothing but playing random games or looking up random games seems like a waste of me time(not to nock people who enjoy doing this. Its just not my thing.)

Thanks In Advance
LKD

Ps. Sorry about the long post.

[Vincent]

Man, as long as you're motivated, and you have some good 2D/3D basis, you don't really need a school or something to learn imho.
The thing is that, from my personnal experience, I learnt more when I decided to work something like 8 hours a day alone in my room, than when I spent 2 years in a very expensive school...
But, let's say that since i didn't have any basis (excepted in 2D), school helped me alot.
But there are a lot of "young" people these days showing amazing works, and they never went in any graphic/3d school. They just worked and worked and worked alone.
The thing is, will you keep yourself motivated ? Because if you're capable of working 8 hours/day, accepting crits from people in the industry (3/4 of the members of this forum i guess...) by showing you're works, even if you think that they are pretty shitty , following every tutorial that will help you learning, etc... You will learn fast, and you will become good pretty fast too.

Sorry if I made (a few?) mistakes, i just woke up, and my english sometimes sucks!

Good luck to you.

[SinisterUrge]

Get Blender, its a free package. You can also download a free version of Maya from autodesk.com . Both programs are 3d packages. When you are making models, bit of advice keep everything in quads. Look on the internet for tutorials, youtube is great for this.

[cookepuss]

If you've got a couple of bucks saved, I'd probably go with a student license of any one of the major packages (Maya, 3dsmax, or Cinema4D). As a student, you'd get a wildly discounted price. For example, I paid $3,500 for Cinema4D Studio v11. A student would only pay $695, $295 for just the base package. The savings you could take advantage of as a student are insane.

However, remembering what it was like to be a broke student, I'd probably suggest Blender (http://www.blender.org/) too. It's one of the rare cases where "getting what you pay for" is a totally false statement. It's free and fabulously feature rich. It does have its fair share of rough spots, but what program doesn't? Blender has professional level power and zero cost.

Here are my suggestions if you're looking to make a go of it at a fraction of the cost:

PURPOSE : EXPENSIVE APP ----- FREE/CHEAPER SUBSTITUTE
Modeling & Animation : Maya/Max/C4D -> Blender (http://www.blender.org/)
Sculpting/Detailing : Pixologic ZBrush -> 3D Coat (http://3dcoat.com/)
Image Editing & Texturing : Adobe Photoshop ---> Corel Paint Shop Pro (http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/us/en/Product/1184951547051#versionTabview=tab0&tabview=tab0)
Web Design : Dreamweaver -> Kompozer (http://kompozer.net/)

Kompozer & Blender are free. 3D Coat can be had for as low as $99. Paint Shop Pro can be found for as low as $50.

Though free, I'd suggest against Gimp as a Photoshop substitute. On Windows, it can be wildly unstable and has a somewhat, unPhotoshop-like inteface. More over, it relies quite a bit on plugins and scripts. Paint Shop Pro has its quirks and is missing a few PS features, but it can easily step up to the plate. It has about 90% of Photoshop's key features and is compatible with most its plugins. Unless you intend on doing heavy print work, it should more than suffice - even for pro work.

3D Coat doesn't have quite the power of ZBrush, but it is an up & comer. It is being developed at a rapid pace and should handle most of your mid to low-high poly sculpting needs.

Komposer is nowhere near as good as Dreamweaver, but it's probably still one of the best WYSIWG html editors. If you don't mind digging into a bit of hand coding now and again, it's a fairly fine piece of free software.

As for where to start....

- 3D Total (http://www.3dtotal.com)has a lot of tutorials. Most are 3dsmax or May related, but can be easily adapted to other apps.
- Ryan Kingslien's old Pixologic blog (http://www.pixologic.com/blogs/ryan/) has some good video tutorials. They are formed around ZBrush, but you can easily learn quite a bit about 3D sculpting from them.
- If you eventually get into animation with Blender, I'd suggest the ManCandy DVD. While they'd prefer that you purchase the DVD, you can actually legally torrent it since it is released under the Creative Commons license.
- Here's a decent 3D glossary to get you started: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro/Terminology
- A couple of simple character modeling tutorials I wrote a while back: http://www.robertsanta.com/images/Buck_Tutorial_1.pdf and http://www.robertsanta.com/images/Buck_Tutorial_2.pdf
- Some more tutorials @ http://www.free3dtutorials.com/ , http://www.poopinmymouth.com/ , and http://www.antropus.com/tutorials.htm


Some advice...

- Dream big, but start small. Model everyday objects first. Chairs. Tables. Soda cans. Anything that can be formed from primitive objects. Your goal early on is to focus on foundations. Later on, you'll realize that characters are just an extension of those simple primitive shapes.
- Accept critique wherever and whenever you can get it. Not all criticism is happy, shiny, and constructive. You'll often get a lot of "you suck" sort of critiques. Roll with the punches, find out what you did wrong, find out how to fix it, and move along. Part of being an artist is taking criticism. We'd all like to hear how great we are, but nobody likes a suck up. You can't learn anything from sycophants. Your worst critics are your friends and family. They'll rarely offer up anything other than praise, unless they're the brutally honest type.
- Observe the world around you. Observation is key in art, even abstract and fantasy. There's a lot you can learn just by examination.
- Engage in as much non-CG art as possible. Even if you're not good at sketching, sculpting, or painting, it can give you a much better appreciation for form and function. A traditional art background, however slight, will always serve you better when doing CG as a hobby or as a pro job.
- Worry about style later. Worry about form now. Style is something that you develop after countless boring exercises. It may be great that you can create a funky toony doofus, but if you can't model something more anatomically sound then it's worth nothing.
- CG is as much tech as it is art. Many of us forget that now and again. The more tech savvy you are the easier it might be for you to construct creative workarounds or solve detailed problems. Depending on your task, that might mean a bit of geometry or math. It could mean a lot of research. It could mean some prep work. It could mean optimization in order to stay within certain specs.
- You camera and Google Images are your best friends. Never leave home without your camera. Always have Google bookmarked. Sometimes, reference images can be found all over the web. Sometimes, you just have to snap them yourself. Develop a habit of collecting and cataloging reference images in what's called a "morgue." I've got gigabytes upon gigabytes of stored photos, videos, and blueprints that I've collected over the years. You can never have enough reference material.
- You can never know enough and thinking that you know everything will get you into trouble. I've seen newbies who thought that they were God's gift to CG and simply refused to believe otherwise, regardless of their craptacular work. Get too big for your britches and nobody will want to help you.

- Ditch the red color in your posts. :) It makes it hard on the eyes. :p

[zeke3d]

as for my advice, I would say since you really want to do this and live only once in theory, spend the money if you have to get the best you can get, as for schools, I would say go to a traditional art school that has on its walls lots of strong examples of students work and pick the best one and go to that one, this will help hopefully the most and will educate you in the fundamentals of art but, if you like worlds and levels go to a design or architectural, drafting heavy school, especially when it comes to drawing spaces and worlds, objects, and vehicles. Keep your eyes open and study as much as you can when in school. My advice would be to go, it will be a good experience, don't worry about the how, I promise you will find a way. If you do or don't go to school make sure you get a good PC that can handle the type of work you want to do, a wacom tablet, and a decent desk and setup. I would say a home made pc that is 1000-1500 in cost should be enough, or a 2000 dell, this thing is going to have to last you at least 4-6 years while you learn and hopefully start with a real job, from here you can learn 3d, and there I will say to go with what the pros are using as far as software, autodesk (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?id=12109864&siteID=123112) now controls the 3 major packages, so I would pick on of those and then there is photoshop, a must, and then there are other programs but I would say start with those, they have good student discounts and then I hear there are discounts that almost make the programs free, learn from tutorials and have fun. If you go to a good school and learn your fundamentals you should be good . If you go to a traditional school you should be able to learn the basics of these applications and game theory to get you in, but if your lacking in knowledge then go to a 2 year game art program at any major school like AI or VSF if you need to, but don't expect to learn nearly as much as you did about art as you did in a traditional school. My last bit of advice is go for the best and really make use of your time as a student and have fun. also from what I hear a lot of people have found Ben Mathis tutorials helpful.

http://poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/tutorial.htm

[cookepuss]

:lol: Dude, those are some awesome run on sentences. I thought it was a giant "lorem ipsum" thing. :p

spend the money if you have to get the best you can get
True. Money begets money. They don't call them investments for no reason. Still, with empty pockets, one has to make do.

There was a reason why I suggested Blender over trueSpace7, which is also 100% free. At least, with Blender, he'll be able to establish some strong work habits with as little long term frustration as possible. trueSpace7 might seem appealing early on, thanks to its toy-like GUI. However, has a lot of feature holes and stability problems. It's one of those apps that only looks good on paper.

Whatever app he chooses should be as traditional as possible. This way, he'll be able to make an easier transition to a "pro" app down the line.

I would say go to a traditional art school that has on its walls lots of strong examples of students work and pick the best one and go to that one
Speak to as many grads as possible too. Some schools, like trueSpace, look good on paper, but provide an uneven experience across the board. So, while the highlighted work may be strong and the reputation may be great, the school may not fit with your individual needs. Research. Research. Research.

You can technically teach yourself this stuff. However, school provides 2 big benefits:

1) A diploma. It's always a bonus selling point on a resume.
2) Structure/Discipline. Some people don't have the ability to self-motivate. School is good for that.

Overall, traditional art experience is important. It's not essential, but it will make you a much better CG artist in every regard. Some people are better with sculpture. Some are better with sketching. Others are great with a paintbrush. You don't have to be great in every traditional discipline. It just helps to have some experience at something other than CG.

I would say a home made pc that is 1000-1500 in cost should be enough, or a 2000 dell, this thing is going to have to last you at least 4-6 years
4-6 years? $2,000?
Computing power increases so frequently that he might be better buying a $1,000 PC every 2-3 years. The long term cost is the same and the overall headaches will be smaller. Trying to squeezing decent performance out of a 6 year old PC is much harder than with a 3 year old one. For $1,000 you can get a surprisingly powerful PC nowadays. One that might well last you beyond your upgrade period.

[zeke3d]

sorry for the run on sentences, just looking to touch on the major points and things I thought would be most beneficial, this is of course based on my experience so everyone's will vary. I still encourage that LKD go for the base pro apps, there is no point in doing work in MS paint if the industry standard is something else, like I said there are a lot of special offers and discounts out there that help both the students and companies who produce the software out in the long run, some "coupons" you can find online make the appz practically free. I also think one pc, that is the best you can come across is better than to always be swapping out software and os and migrating your files. overall I don't think he can go wrong with what any one here has mentioned, its a general good point in the right direction. lastly don't get discouraged.

[cookepuss]

there is no point in doing work in MS paint if the industry standard is something else
True enough, but apps like Blender & Corel PSP are hardly MS Paint. :p They're certainly powerful, valuable, and valid tools. They're more than enough for him to learn and establish good habits early on.

Ideally, he'd have a small wad of cash to burn so that he can skip having to learn new apps later on. Life's not that forgiving though.

I do agree totally about those educational discounts. They're great. I only wish this high end software was around when I was a student. With the rare exception, such as receiving free NFR licenses, I've always had to pay full price. Not a big deal since it's an investment.

I just took a look at the prices of the software @ the Academic Store.

Adobe Photoshop CS4 $300
Autodesk 3ds Max 2009 $400 (perpetual license)
Autodesk Maya Unlimited 2009 $400 (perpetual license)
Maxon Cinema 4D R11 $300/$500/$900 (Core/XL/Studio Bundles)
Newtek Lightwave 3D v9 $200
Pixologic ZBrush 3.1 $400
Softimage XSI 7 $300

While it does all seem sensible, it adds up pretty quickly. Suppose he goes for the trifecta -ZBrush, Photoshop, & and any one of the 3D packages. That can run $900 - $1,600. Tack on a computer and the student cost can be anywhere from $2,000 - $4,000. This is really just for the essential. That doesn't include training materials.

So yeah, it does look kinda bad if he wants to mainstream from the get go.

Still, speaking from personal experience, it could be a lot worse. This year alone, here at home, I had to get:

Cinema 4D Studio R11 - $3,500 (Fresh license, as I had a NFR before.)
ZBrush 3.1 - $800 (Since I was using Silo for sculpting before.)
Adobe CS4 Master - $2,500 (Needed a fresh set of licenses)
Cintiq 12wx $1,000 (To replace a dead Intuos)
New PC - $3,000 (Shifted my old Pentium D to render node status)
New 22" LCD - $500 (Ditched my old 19" CRT)
An extra 1TB external HDD - $400 (For my pet CG project.)
Cheapo Laser Printer - $200 (Vista x64 hated my old HP LaserJet)

That's close to a whopping $13k. That's just for the bare essentials for my bedroom workstation. Toss that onto whatever it cost me to maintain the other 9 PCs & laptops here... Granted, not everybody works from their apartment, but costs add up.

So, a $2k entry cost for student actually seems much more reasonable. As an investment in the future, I can certainly agree with you. If it means selling off your PS3, games, and digging into your saving..... Yeah. Totally worth it, provided you're serious.

If all he wants to do is learn CG and maybe do it as a job later on, best to go with the cheaper or freebie options first.

The concepts and technique transcend any one piece of software. He could just as easily learn any of the major apps later on when he can afford them. IMHO, once you know one app, it's pretty easy to learn any of them. Same sh**, different stench. :)

The specifics differ, but fundamentals are universal. It's those specifics that create this learning curve. For those with experience in another app, becoming proficient with a new app can take a couple of months or a couple of days.

I wouldn't worry about him learning the major apps just yet. Once he becomes proficient elsewhere, it's only a matter of transitioning. He's best off focusing on learning the terminology, mastering the techniques, and establishing a solid set of work habits at this point.


EDIT>>> I'm sure that you'll probably ask what a NFR license is. NFR stands for "Not For Resale." It's a license that is in every way identical to a standard commercial license except for one. You can't sell or transfer it. I've often received free NFR licenses after having written product reviews, of which I've written a dozen. I had to get a fresh commercial license for my C4D Studio v11 because the cost of upgrading from my C4D XL 9.5 NFR wasn't too different. In the past, I've managed to get free, legit commercial licenses for C4D 8-9, trueSpace 6, ZBrush 1.23b, DeepPaint3D, Deep Exploration, DeepUV, Shade, Carrara, Silo, and Quidam. Sweet deal. I just can't sell off my old licenses to pay for upgrades. :) So I've got a pile of untransferrable old CG software collecting dust on my bookcase. Shame.

[JacqueChoi]

Hi!

You know that saying "don't listen to what anyone else tells you"? Well it kinda works the opposite here. Listen to absolutely EVERYTHING that EVERYONE tells you, regardless of skill level, art level, or if they're an artist themselves. The more people you listen to, and the more you learn from them, the better you will become.

This is one of my alltime favorite threads:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114449

A mediocre concept artist who only drew manga turns into a complete superstar within a year.

It'll take a LOT of hardwork, and a lot of practice. But you'll have to always keep improving, and never stop learning.

Welcome to the forums, and welcome to 3D

:D

[mwgrafx]

Thanks for the find Joxx, that was very inspirational. It is now one of my favorite threads.

[Mogster]

dont forget silo3d as a starter 3d app very much worth it i think, and easy to pick up and get into.
and learn your 2d drawing anatomy etc

[janus]

My advice is:

1 -Try everything out yourself...apps, techniques, everything. If you work your way through the demos for every app you'll find what suits you and not just what a person recommends becaue its good for them.

2 - Beware app wars (like zbrush / mudbox, maya, max etc etc.) the only balanced oppinion you'll ever get is from yourself. Opinions are like rectums ...everyone has one.

3 - Your pipeline and way of working can and will change many times as you develope as an artist...discount nothing.

4 - Try different areas of 3d..I started out as a hard surface modeller for example, Now I'm a organic digital sculptor.

5 - You dont need to pay one penny to learn 3d if you are focused. There is enough available for free if you look around. If you then wish to buy dvd's etc go for it...but beware the 'vested interests.'

6 - Similarly going to study 3d on a course is not needed and results depend on what kind of person you are. If you learn better on your own a class may slow down our developement...if you work better as part of a team it may work well.

7 - Become a sponge and soak everything in....it'll all set you in good stead as you grow as an artist.

8 - Practice...parctaice again and when your done...go and practice more. The more you put the theory into an actual project / projects the more you will develope. So take part in online challenges on forums etc..

9 - Early on do not get too caught up in getting one project 'perfect', do them and then foget and move to the next. Don't geet too attached to a model or project and keep moving on, as each mistake you make will learn you something new.

10 - Although it can be hard early on, do take critisim well..we can all get too close to a model or scene and a fresh point of view often helps.

Best of luck and I Hope that helps.


Wayne...

[Kickflipkid687]

I went to college for 3 years to get a Bachelor of Science in Game Design, and I will say I learned quite a bit, but do I regret doing it... kind of...

A degree can look good on paper like others have said, and some employers require you to have one, but it mostly comes down to skills.

I've spent most of my time doing 3D teaching myself or work with Mod teams or reading tutorials. I feel if I didn't do all those things, I wouldn't have a contract job at Bungie right now. I was doing projects and things outside of class while in school, and also over achieved on most all things I did to push myself and make a name for myself.

I won't list programs or anything to use because others already have, but getting into this industry can be really tough, and I feel I got pretty lucky. But it also isn't glamorous or very high paying in general, but depends.

If you want to do 3D, get very good at it, then branch off into other things. It doesn't hurt to know how to do many things, but you need to really good at one thing.

[cookepuss]

-Try everything out yourself...apps, techniques, everything. If you work your way through the demos for every app you'll find what suits you and not just what a person recommends because its good for them.
True. OTHOH, wouldn't it suck if he ended up loving something too far out of his price range right now? I mean, that's kinda like test driving and falling in love with a Ferrari only to remember that you work at McDonalds. Your first car is always some piece of sh** Hyundai you can afford without selling a kidney and afford to beat up with little remorse. Nobody's forcing anybody into anything, but it'd make sense not to fall in love with the Ferrari of CG apps when when you're better off learning in a Hyundai.

Both will get him from point A to point B.
Both will allow him to learn to "drive."
Only one won't bust his wallet.

Personally, if my 1st CG app were something like Maya I'd probably feel quite overwhelmed and tempted to quit. For as daunting as Blender's UI may be, something like Maya may prove even more technical for somebody with zero CG training.

Just sayin'.

Sampling is always a good idea. It's just better to do if you know what it is that you're sampling. As a total newbie, it's unfair to try and critically compare apps when you don't have a solid foundation with which to make such comparisons.

2 - Beware app wars
QFT. Everybody's got their own snake oil to sell. To me, at the end of the day, they're really the same thing. Just like the cars, they all can get you from A to B. How they get you there is what really differs. Some will get you there quicker. Some will make you take the scenic route. The bottom line is, all of the high end CG apps are built with similar goals in mind and have fairly comparable feature sets. Anybody who tells you that "x" app is the best is trying to sell you a bill of goods. One's choice of apps really boils down to personal preference and what app you chosen industry/studio is using that day.


You dont need to pay one penny to learn 3d if you are focused. There is enough available for free if you look around.
True. The real difference is that it may take 20 tutorials for you to learn a topic that may be covered in depth in one DVD. There are tons of great tutorials on the net. A self-starter can find tons of free stuff if they're properly motivated.

Still, there's some stuff that's best covered in commercial training material. There's a reason why groups like Gnomon is so popular. They cover certain topics in such depth that no single tutorial or group of tutorials can compare.

If you learn better on your own a class may slow down our developement...if you work better as part of a team it may work well.
Ehhhhh.... Get use to teams and group structure/discipline now anyway. Unless you work for yourself, you're going to be stuck with some sort of structured environment anyway. The commercial world doesn't tolerate lone wolf mentality so much any more.

9 - Early on do not get too caught up in getting one project 'perfect', do them and then foget and move to the next. Don't geet too attached to a model or project and keep moving on, as each mistake you make will learn you something new.
Just to add to that...

- No project is ever truly finished. It is only abandoned.
- Your best project is the one you finish to relative satisfaction.
- Finish nothing and your effort is worth nothing.

[janus]

True. OTHOH, wouldn't it suck if he ended up loving something too far out of his price range right now?

Ok I'll concede that point.


Personally, if my 1st CG app were something like Maya I'd probably feel quite overwhelmed and tempted to quit.

Maya was my 1st app, its about how badly you want to learn really. Yeah sometimes apps can look scary at first but once you get a overview it start loking a whole lot easier.


Still, there's some stuff that's best covered in commercial training material. There's a reason why groups like Gnomon is so popular. They cover certain topics in such depth that no single tutorial or group of tutorials can compare.

Yeah that reason is money...companies want to make it lol. (The main reason for gnomons succes where they were there 1st.... and have a lot of in your face promotion. people rarely see the other stuff that companies put out or give it a try..its sor tof like pepsi and coke...brand names.)

Its a misconception that you some stuff can only be done in detail on commercial dvd's...take the 6 hours (and still counting ) of vids I'm doing in high res for autodesk on mudbox (unpaid I may addd...the whoel idea is to provide trainig for free.)...those are covering mudbox in more detail tha any single dvd would..and they are free.. Its a matter of whether people want to help people to learn, or just make money from tutorials. (Each 3 hours worth of material would normally earn me 10 grand in sales in a year..so no one can say I'm not 'doing my bit'. ;) so so far I've been prepared to take a 20 grand hit and I'm not done yet... lets see more of that!)

I've released 4 commercial dvd's (5 if you count the one that comes with the zbrush book) and been training people for years, so on that score I am lucky to be able to see both sides in glorious technicolour. Any subject can be covered for free online if people wanted to, I think its safe to say I've proved that of late.


Ehhhhh.... Get use to teams and group structure/discipline now anyway. Unless you work for yourself, you're going to be stuck with some sort of structured environment anyway. The commercial world doesn't tolerate lone wolf mentality so much any more.


This isn't about training for a job this is about the basic ground skills people need. It'll be some time before someone is ready to start thinking about getting a job. Let them get their skills up to speed 1st by whatever mean they can before thinking about working as part of a team. If someone is not capable of working as part of a team chances are they wont get the break they want anyway.

Those are my thoughts based on my experience, take it or leave as its only my oppinion and nothing more. as I said earlier opinions are like rectums, everyone has one.....including me. :) lol

Wayne...

[cookepuss]

The main reason for gnomons succes where they were there 1st.... and have a lot of in your face promotion.
It's something I like to call the Autodesk effect. :) Autodesk & Alias Wavefront parlayed that early DOS and SGI street cred into a Windows empire. They've created this (misleading) image that the only serious apps are Autodesk/Alias ones. It's an effect that's still being felt to this day. Seriously.

I think where Gnomon differs simply isn't that they were the first or that they shout the loudest. It's that they're the best. There's a certain legitimacy to that claim. It's not just depth that they offer, but also breadth. More over, their stable of artists is much better. The offerings of their closest competition in this market is really actually pretty shallow. Just look at the offerings form Digital Tutors, Kurv, or 3D Total - to name a few.

I've released 4 commercial dvd's (5 if you count the one that comes with the zbrush book)
I know. Your reputation precedes you. :)

Any subject can be covered for free online if people wanted to, I think its safe to say I've proved that of late.
Trust me. Your reputation is without question. However, you are the exception and not the rule.

As a content producer, it's becoming especially hard though. It's not so much that a good tutorial or training DVD take serious time, which they do. It is, imo, becoming harder and harder to live up to the demanding expectations of the end user.

Years ago, pre-Gnomon, you could placate a newbie with a page or two worth of dry text and a handful of screen caps. That was okay. People ate it up.

Today, with so much commercial competition, even the free tutorials are expected throw in everything but the kitchen sink in order to remain a viable alternative. To ask the average professional to reveal his "black magic" in uber detail, for free is a lot to ask. Not impossible or improbable, but rare.

Good, free non-video tutorials still exist, but they are becoming fewer and further between. Lately, I've seen more "making of" post mortems than actual in depth tutorials.

The best free tutorials I've seen over the past years tend to come in the form of forum or blog postings. I've seen more info dropped in single threads than I've seen in the average print tutorial. The idea of community coming together in the spirit of sharing is something that actually gives me hope for the artists of tomorrow.

Still, as an end user, high end educational resources are becoming harder and harder to come by in non-forum/blog format. A good example would be Ryan Kingslien. His old employee blog at Pixologic was a fantastic resource for ZBrush newbies. Now, with him working with Gnomon, that resource is all but dead.

Another important difference between free tutorials and DVDs is permanence. Great web based tutorials go offline all of the time. Some of the greatest have been lost to the ether thanks to dead hosting, lack of archival, or bandwidth issues. To me, it's the difference between an e-book and good old fashioned paper. Given the choice between a digital copy or a pressed disc, I'll choose the hard copy any day.

This isn't about training for a job this is about the basic ground skills people need. It'll be some time before someone is ready to start thinking about getting a job.
True. True. I'm talking about somebody who's serious about learning this stuff to an end greater than hobby CG.

Any hobbyist can learn this stuff without formal training, traditional or otherwise. They can happily piss away the hours and not worry about developing team skills.

However, if this person in question is even considering CG as a career it's probably best to start off on the right foot. I'm talking about structure. Even the most most motivated self-starter can benefit from the structure and discipline provided by formal instruction or teamwork.

The right time to get your kid to play well with others isn't on his first day of school. It's before that.

This is about the early development of professional socialization skills. As I said, if this is going to be nothing more than hobby, who cares? The game changes if we're talking about a career in CG somewhere in the future. Gotta start those good habits early. There are just some skills or habits you can't pick up by your lonesome.

I never had such a choice when I started first doing CG back in 1989. The internet didn't exist. There were no schools for CG artists. There were no mentors for this stuff. It was either art school or liberal arts. Anything to learn about CG was learned on your own. It was very much a dark art back then.

With CG in its infancy, none of the art schools were too well prepared for the shift to digital arts. (Now, even my old high school has a whole building for digital arts and such.) With as much of an interest in the sciences as the arts, I went for a liberal arts education and taught myself CG instead.

I'm one of those seriously motivated people you talk about. Everything I know, I taught myself. My good habits are my own, as are my bad ones. It was a long and hard road. I find myself still learning stuff, even 19 years later.

So, I agree with you, it's totally possible to make a go of it on your own and without the aid of commercial tutorials or formal environments. I can only wonder how much easier my road might have been had I gone the other way.

Those are my thoughts based on my experience, take it or leave as its only my opinion and nothing more.
No need to apologize for speaking your mind. No need to qualify your insights. All opinions are respected, regardless of difference.

[cookepuss]

One addendum:

Wayne, I know that your DVDs are Kurv. So, when I criticize Kurv, in comparison to Gnomon, it's not meant as a reflection on you per se. Again, your reputation for quality is without question.

[janus]

One addendum:

Wayne, I know that your DVDs are Kurv. So, when I criticize Kurv, in comparison to Gnomon, it's not meant as a reflection on you per se. Again, your reputation for quality is without question.

Trust me when I say that's not a problem lol...I walked out from Kurv last year for a variety of reasons (non payment of royalties being one of them). Every company releases both good and bad dvd's for a learning perspective..yes even gnomon lol. Gnomon have a god format that works for many..is it perfect? No but nothing ever is, but I do feel that they over egg the pudding a fair bit at times.

You may find it interesting that I offered plenty of times over a year and a half to do exactly what I'm doing now for mudbox only for pixologic. The answer was a firm no as it would cost gnomon money...make of that what you will. I'd like to see a lot more experienced guys moving towards releasing for free. Maybe I'm alone in thinking that its worth me taking a financial nose dive doing free stuff if it means people get to learn. Yeah like everyone else I need to pay the bills and feed my family, but when I can I try to help. I just wish a few more would do it.

I remember the days before gnomon and video tutorials, it was harder back then but also helped shape a number of us as artists. I'm always careful to put that small 'disclaimer' on posts like these as all too often yougn starting out seem to treat them as absolute truths. Thats why I make it clear I don't nor do I claim to know everything. lol It also helps to cut down on the hate emails :P

I enjoy a good serious debate :) It keeps the mind sharp plus its a bonus that we've kept it civil. :)

Wayne...

[zeke3d]

my comment is, that this thread should about helping out LKD, and lets keep it at that, janus dropped in his 2 cents, so have others, I think we could help out LKD a bit more if he showed us some drawings or artwork he did in the past.

[cookepuss]

I enjoy a good serious debate It keeps the mind sharp plus its a bonus that we've kept it civil.
Agreement on all counts. As far as civility is concerned, it'd take a lot more than harmless debate to make me lose my cool. :)

The answer was a firm no as it would cost gnomon money...make of that what you will.
You know what? Business is business. I'd probably hold no ill will toward them. Everybody scratches everybody's back just to keep the machine going. Everybody has a vested interest. To put it another way, where would the petrol industry be with cars that ran solely on Kool-Aid? :)

but when I can I try to help. I just wish a few more would do it.
Every the idealist, eh? ;) That's one of the reasons why I donate my time to communities such as this. It's the real reason why all of the product reviews I've ever written were done on a pro bono basis. It's the reason why, when I can, I still try to write PDF tutorials that last 56 pages and release them out in the wild.

I love the CG community. I want to give a helping hand where there was none for me. Guess I'm an idealist in this regard too.

Thats why I make it clear I don't nor do I claim to know everything. lol It also helps to cut down on the hate emails
So, so true. I've written some tutorials before in the past. I've always said that the information presented therein isn't the way. It's just my way. Everybody's got their own habits and tricks. That's why I like looking at these DVDs. Even if I already know the topic, I like to see how other people work. It opens up a new window into an already familiar process.

my comment is, that this thread should about helping out LKD, and lets keep it at that
With the exception of Wayne getting some of the business end stuff off of his chest - which I would agree is fairly out of place here - even these detours have been a means to the same exact end. LKD can certainly take back something back from our little back & forth exchanges.

I think we could help out LKD a bit more if he showed us some drawings or artwork he did in the past.
Certainly. Just not in this thread. If LKD wants us to give a critical once over to any of his artwork I invite him to start a new thread. A clean slate so that we can focus on a related, but different issue.

The purpose of this thread is to lay out all of the cards on the table. Show LKD what he's up against and how "deep the rabbit hole really goes." It may seem that we've overcomplicated the original topic. I prefer to think that we've expanded it by showing him answers to questions he might not have considered.

So, LKD, I'm sure that we'd love to see anything you have. This thread would still be fine. A fresh thread would be nicer, imho. It doesn't matter how modest it is. Even the simplest doodle or model can help us figure out how to help you best direct your energies.

I know that your head is swimming with information right now. Still, if you have any more questions, feel free to fire away. My fellow esteemed goofballs and I will certainly do our level best to help.

~~Rob~~

[LittleKnownDude]

Ok thanks for all the help! Sorry ive been long getting back and saying thanks ive had some problems seeing some threads and have been doing some studing basic figure anatomy. Yet again sorry and thank you some much for the help. I looked around for months before and didn't get anywhere. Now im back looking around the net and found more info here in a week than in months on other forums.

Yet again thanks,
LKD

Edit: about art work i dont have a scanner and im (hopefully) getting a wacom tablet over Christmas so i can put some work on the forum