Good map renderers?

[ReplicA]

First off, my apologies if this has already been covered, I couldn't find anything when I searched the boards. Now, on to the topic.

Here's my situation. My computer is not the fastest, I can get nicely high res models to work just fine, but getting them into Max to bake the maps is slow, and sometimes, just won't work. I love the maps Max produces, they're clean, semi-fast, and I haven't been able to find anything that beats it, in terms of results, and ease of getting those results. I often end up using models with a lower polycount, in order to get them into max, for map rendering. Obviously this is gonna sacrifice details, and make the end results suffer anyway.

Here's my question. Does anyone know of any map renderers that are free, or super cheap, that produce results at least close to max's quality, on arbitrary meshes?

I'd love to be able to finally use a 20 mil poly model to render maps from. I've used xnormal, and it's ok, but can really give some funky, unpredictable results. I've also tried importing part of the high res mesh into max, rendering the map, deleting high res, importing another part, rendering another map, deleting high res, repeat, till the entire thing is on there, then stitching together in PS, but that can yield some wacky seams I can't get rid of.

So any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, or whatever, I'm all ears. Thanks for reading this novel. ;)

[Maph]

I've got awesome experiences with Topogun's baking utilities. The outputted normal maps are very clean and most of the time the artifacts are minimal.
And it's fast, if not the fastest baker out there. I can generate a full 4k normal map in matter of seconds (8core machine) on highest quality.
Then again, I can't really compare with Max's output, as I've never used Max. TG's maps are cleaner than XSI's, faster, and the baking is very customizeable. And XSI's ultimapper is a good baker. :)
But TG is in beta, so you need to apply for the beta program to be able to use it. :)

Those seams you get from stitching together are tangent seams, and there aren't much bakers out there that handle tangent seams well. This is probably due to tangent orientation not matching world/local orientation, a proper 3D programmer ought to clarify this though.
In fact, the only baker I've come across that handles this in a correct manner, is Microwave, but it's too slow to use in a day by day situation imho.

[ReplicA]

Thanks for the reply, Maph. I'll be checking into topogun, for sure. Although I was a beta tester for them a while back, I ran out of time to give feedback on it, and had to bow out. I also had no idea they implemented map rendering into it, that's really cool.

I haven't given mudbox 2009's map rendering a try yet, I think I'll do that real quick. Don't know why I didn't think of it before posting...

Anyway, thanks, Maph for the help. Anyone else got anything?

[Ged]

I found xnormals map rendering to be confusing at first but now I pretty much use it for any map rendering I ever do so Ive gotten used to setting it up and it gives fantastic results.

[ploon]

I'd second Xnormal as a pretty good fast alternative.
It can load huge models in dependent on your ram and its free :)

[ReplicA]

Thanks for the replies, Ged, and ploon. Are there any specific settings you guys use with xnormal to get good results? As a "for instance", the results I get have arms projected onto legs, and torsos. Any ideas how to stop that from happening? If xnormal really is a good renderer, and I'm just missing some settings, that would save me a LOT of trouble.

[Maph]

Thanks for the replies, Ged, and ploon. Are there any specific settings you guys use with xnormal to get good results? As a "for instance", the results I get have arms projected onto legs, and torsos. Any ideas how to stop that from happening? If xnormal really is a good renderer, and I'm just missing some settings, that would save me a LOT of trouble.

That depends on your mesh. If you get too much artifacts, I'd suggest using a custom cage. Custom cages are a big help in those situations.

[MM]

i use xnormal for creating all my normal maps for characters and creatures. it does a really good job of capturing the tiniest details and is very accurate.

its funny you mention 20 mil, couple nights ago i baked from a 22 mil poly mesh in one pass @ 4k and it was perfect.

btw, i never ever use custom cages, by default the older versions of xnormal had the cage option on and caused the errors you are talking about. the newer version of xnormal has cage off by deault so it should not be a problem.

if your low poly mesh conforms well to the high poly then your normal map should be fairly clean.

also try to maintain the proper scale of models, if your model is really tiny then you may get over cast which might cause the arms to render on the legs since in the global distance they are very close to each other.

btw, here few thing that you need to get a clean normal map:

first and obvious one is that you need a very clean sculpt, some zbrush shaders can make sculpts look prettier than they really are.

second, you need a good low poly mesh that conforms very well to the high poly.

third, your UV should be clean and accurate.

[ReplicA]

Seems I need to give xnormal another shot.

Thanks for the tip, Maph. I checked some of the docs for custom cages, and I'll need a new exporter for max, but that should be easy enough to find. I'll give those a shot for sure.

MM, Thanks for the reply. You mention some things I need to get right before using it, clean sculpt, well confirming low poly, and good uv's. Could any of those cause http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xnrmaltest01ab3.jpg

That's a shot of my latest test render with xnormal. Im not blaming the app, if people can get good normals out of it, then I must be doing something wrong. I'm sure I'll be singing the praises of xnormal as soon as I figure out what the heck I'm doing. ;)

Anyway, thanks again for all the help everyone.

[MM]

i have never seen anything like that before. what version of xnormal do you have ?

can you post screens from your xnormal ?

also, be sure to post your xnormal bugs or any problems to this polycount thread :

http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=41776&page=53

[Ged]

Im not sure whats going on with your xnormal. I use objs to start with, one high poly one low poly. I make sure they are huuuuuge in my 3D app(cinema 4d or max) then I import them to xnormal and set up a cage mesh in the xnromal 3D viewer and save as SBMs as they load really fast. then load them up in xnormal instead of objs. Then hit render normal map and thats about it, usually I end up doing this process a few times on a model just to get things right.

I learnt the hard way that scale is very important when rendering normal maps in xnormal and you will get legs projected onto eachother etc if you mesh is too small. heres when I was learning xnormal during dom war 3

http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=51853&highlight=mint&page=4

[ReplicA]

Thanks, Ged, and MM. I scaled that guy up HUGE, and tried again. And this time I'm getting something that looks like a normal map! It has huge amounts of errors, but I think that's cause there's armor involved, and the distance between the high and low in certain areas is a bit larger than others, so a straight out ray distance is gonna fail. I'll try the cage thing, I just can't find the sbm exporter to do that yet.

I'll get this thing to work, somehow, and hopefully I'll be able to finally use 20 mil poly models :D Thanks so much for all your help, guys. MUCH appreciated.


[EDIT] Good lord, I'm dumb.... Finally updated my version of xnormal, and what do you know? The sbm exporter's in there! Sometimes, I swear...

[Aftermath]

Replica: my workflow is max based but i take my low poly model and put a projection modifier on it and import a lower sub to show how far i need to press the cage off the lower poly model. I then export using the sbm option in max (xnormal added this) click export normals/export cage/export uv's and then export it and open it in xnormal to test.

[ReplicA]

Alright, got some time to do some real testing now. I exported the sbm from max, with the boxes Aftermath suggested (Thanks :) ), and here's the map I got. http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xnrmaltest01normalsyn1.jpg

Still not usable, or even decent, but better than what I had before, so I'm getting somewhere. Now I'm off to do some more tests.

[mr_ace]

i have the exact same problem, nothing gives me bakes as good as max. also, i need AO as well as normal. does xnormal bake AO as well? i usually don't have a problem with baking things in chunks but max on my machine will only support a max of about 2.5 million tris. i might have to look into xnormal again, but last time i tried it, i couldnt bake anything worth using, the were far inferior to anything produced in max.

out of my experience, my rating n order from best to worst is:
max
mudbox
zbrush
xnormal

[ReplicA]

Hey, mr_ace, yeah xnormal does all kinds of maps, including AO. I'm hoping to get some decent maps out of it, just gotta keep working on it. I'm sure once I figure out what's going wrong, it won't be a big deal to get them right from there forward.

[Aftermath]

Seems you either have to small of a cage or your samples may need to be raised higher also i normally run x4 antialising and a edge pading of 0 with closest ray hit falls checked and 32 for the bucket. Check the box to use cage on the low poly if you havent done so yet. Another thing im seeing is that your normal map seems to be inverted but that could be the ray cast playing tricks on my eyes. If you want i could help you figure out your issue better if you ziped the low and high up and pmed me the link to dl them i have some free time tonight to play with it. Your call either way i will be checking this thread to try and help you get this thing conquered!

[ReplicA]

Ah, thanks, Aftermath!! That's extremely kind :) Luckily the mesh is a personal project of mine, so I can send it to who ever I want. I'm using max 9, for the cage, would you want them in max format, or would you prefer obj's?

[EDIT] I packed the high res (OBJ) and low poly (SBM), with winrar, and I'm upping them now. Together packed, they're 87.72mb. I'll pm you with the link when it's done. Just bare in mind, I'm not looking for a perfect normal map with this one, I've already rendered one in max, and finished the game model, so I'm in no hurry with this. Also, parts of the low poly have been excluded, to make the normal render a bit better in certain areas, like I left out the hip armor, spikes, and little handle-dilly-bobs, but they're in the high res, so I could keep it in one file. And while I'm at it, you have my full permission to do whatever you want with this thing, except claim it as yours, which I know you wouldn't do, but just covering my ass. ;) Render new maps, practice texturing, rig him, put him in a mod, retopo him, toss him when you're done. I don't care.

And big thanks again. Big big BIG thanks if you can figure out what my problem is. :D

[Aftermath]

obj's would be fine, dont worry about the use of your mesh im just going to try and help you get this ironed out if anything i will look at the typology for reference. People always model differently so i am always looking for different ways to lay down some verts. No problem, just trying to help you out.

[ReplicA]

PM sent, Aftermath. Unfortunately, I gotta go till tomorrow. It's getting late, and family duties call. Again, no rush on this.

[Aftermath]

First and foremost great models man this is some very inspiring stuff you have here. I would like to bug you for the ztool or the highpoly obj too for reference on the details you added :D ;) .

Ok i played with the models you gave me for about 20 mins and found some things. Right off the bat the model was dark so i tossed in a light into the scene light didnt reflect so i refliped the normals (in 3d max under Surface Properties) and deleted the light and the model showed back up.

Another thing i did was add some smoothing groups to the model to help the raycasting project the detail in xnormal. Next i made sure all of the object where attatched and then placed a projection modifier on the model.

I reset the current cage and pushed the cage outward as far as i could without the cage crossing itself in spots like the legs. Then exported it as a SBM file and imported it into xnormal. The only reason i went so extreme with the cage was because the highpoly you sent me would crash my max so i couldnt delete the unnessary objects from it or use it for cage reference.

Here is the first render i recieved from the two models keep in mind the render is a larger texture size then you original i did this so i could see any imperfections.

Render without my paintover:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/ICRYWHENIPOO/normalmaptestfixnoedits.jpg

Here is the same render with some paintovers:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/ICRYWHENIPOO/normalmaptestfix.jpg



Time for me to explain the paint over and what the marks are pointing out.

The yellow lines represent your low poly pressing through your high poly/normal map. This is because the cage needs to be tweaked more, because the mesh is so feature heavy you will need to import both mesh's and make sure the cage fits over the high poly nicely. I can test this for you but you need to delete the objects from the high that arent present on the low like the hip armor and so on. I think im going to write up a tutorial on this because this issue is why i couldnt finish the comicon. Later on after hours of research i found out how to fix it on my own. I couldnt find any help online about it. To better show whats going on with your model i am attaching a screengrab of my issue i ran into with my Deadpool model.

The red also has to do with the cage needing tweaked more but also the uvw map. Your uv's are fairly clean but like MM said above they could use some more tlc. This will help make the normals project onto the low res better.

My LowPoly arm coming through my back

How to fix it is posted in the above paragraph.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/ICRYWHENIPOO/cry.jpg

Another couple of things i ran into is the objects that are missing from the low poly but are still on the high poly are causing render issues. The raycast is hitting those objects on the high but it trys to project them onto the low and cant because the lowres doesnt have the obj present anymore. I tryed to also test the AO map and ran into the same issue except where the objects were missing the light couldnt bounce and cause them to render black.

Well im off for the night i have some stuff i need to finish up around the house and i have to start planning out some models i want to do before march ( GDC ) i hope to try and get a job then in the game industry. Play with it somemore and try to see if this information helps you if it doesnt relay back here what is going wrong so i can still assist you. I will be playing with the mesh's some more and doing some other tests. Keep it up man super nice work.


I would like to thank Marcus and Naziel for the help they have given me in the past because without their help i wouldnt be able to help you now.

[ReplicA]

Hmmm, that's a lot to think about, and a lot of work on your part, aftermath. Can't tell you how much I appreciate you going this far to help out a stranger. :D So with this kind of model, one with organic bits, and armor bits, do you think it would be best to "explode" the mesh into the separate bits, and render them out?

Yeah, for some reason, when exporting the normals got flipped, and I guess it tossed the smoothing groups already on there. I'm wondering if having lots of little pieces, and armor is too much for xnormal? Maybe it's more for things like organic bits OR armor bits, not both at the same time?

Well, here's a shot of the model finished, and textured and all that. http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=locust09ld2.jpg And since you went so far beyond the call, I'll up the ztool of the high res for ya. It only has the fleshy bits, since the rest was done in max and mudbox. If you have max 9, or a way to open max 9 files, I can send you the whole max scene.

[EDIT] So I went back in to max, collapsed the low to mesh, instead of tricking the sbm exporter into believing it was a mesh by putting an edit mesh modifier on it, re-exported, removed the unnecessary high res meshes, re-exported the high res, re-rendered the map in xnormal, and now it works much better. Unfortunately, it still has the pink in the map, but it's not nearly so ugly as it was before.

http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xnrmaltest03ub1.jpg

Any thoughts on this map?

Oh, and I tried MB to render the normal, and didn't get anywhere with it. I'm thinking my current model will be more xnormal friendly, though.

[Aftermath]

No problem Replica i would render the pieces seperate to get the best result because then each piece gets its own cage. I would then piece them together in photoshop to make the final normal map.

As far as you getting the pink lines try uninstalling xnormal and downloading a new version and installing it. I think the pink is a program issue and not your models because if you look the model rendered fairly clean this time around it just turned pinker then normal. I took your models and throught them in xnormal and they rendered fine for the most part and there wasnt so much pink present.

[jogshy]

Remember to do a Reset X Form before exporting ( or freeze transformations in Maya ). That will save you tons of headaches.
For some strange reason(I bet to optimize the moving speed) 3dsmax does not update the mesh's normals if you rotate it. A reset X form is needed to update the normals correctly.

And... never use the max2obj exporter that comes with the old max versions... it's completely bugged. Instead, use the SBM exporter, guruware's OBJ exporter, ASE, COLLADA, etc...

That pink problem can be also caused due to an incorrect normal map "swizzling". By default you should use X+Y+Z+ ( or X+Y-Z+ if you use the UE3 engine )... but if you set it to, for example, X+Y+X- you'll have problems...

I suggest you to render a "wireframe and ray fails" map to see what's happening. I bet you'll see some rays failing or some other errors, probably caused by an incorrect ray distance measurement, so the pink color represents the ray is hitting a back-face(do you have the "ignore face hits" option enabled? It should be enabled ) .... I see clearly the rays are traveling too much because the arms are being projected into some placer where they shouldn't be. Try to setup a basic cage: just extrude it until it covers completely the highpoly mesh.

[ReplicA]

Thanks, jogshy. I checked the swizzling, and it's at x+y-z+, for max and both meshes are SBM files. Also, it has a cage I used from Max, and ignore backface hits is checked. I rendered a wireframe and ray fail map, and this is what I got. It looks fine to me, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for, other then ray fails. I could have sworn I did a reset xform before the export, but that doesn't mean much. I'll probably export again, just to be sure. Any ideas about what's going wrong here?

[Aftermath]

zip up the latest version you have with those pieces missing so the models match each other and let me try a new render with my settings and machine. Delete the old upload too i dont need it anymore, your model is fine and its not your raycasting i think its just your xnormal settings or xnormal itself buged up. Thats why i want to just render it on my box without changing anything to see if it is.

[ReplicA]

Hey, Aftermath, I'll get you those meshes soon.

And I did another render, this time of normal and AO, and the AO was perfect, but the normal is still pink. All the maps but the normals seem to be working. Very odd.

Anyway, I'll get those files to you as soon as I can. For now, I need away from the pc for a bit. Going nuts from the inability to leave the hosue for the past week...

[Aftermath]

Go get some fresh air , change of scenory always helps clean the mind blocks and who knows when you come back you might see the problem right away.

Have fun, go xmas shopping.

[ReplicA]

I would go do ANYTHING right now, but I can't! Too much snow and ice. The only thing I can do, is walk in my yard, and look at snow. If I had someone here to throw snowballs at, or whatever, I'd do that. But I don't, so I'm screwed. :)

[ReplicA]

Not sure if you saw it, Aftermath, but I pm'd you yesterday with the link to the newer meshes. If you just haven't had time to check them out yet, I totally understand. Just wanted to make sure you at least got the link

[Aftermath]

Sorry i got the link, was busy entertaining guests yesterday. Thanks i will have some test results in a few.

[MM]

i can do some tests on your mesh as well, let me know if u need help. all i would need is high poly and low poly, i dont use cage meshes.

[ReplicA]

Thanks, MM. Would you mind if the mesh had the cage? I've already got those meshes packed up. you should be able to not use the cage, even if it's on there.

I'm just about ready to start rendering maps on my latest model, and I'm gonna try xnormal for it. It would be great if I can figure out a decent workflow for xnormal use, especially since the current model is too much for max to handle.

[EDIT] MM, link and some info sent via pm.

I'm just about ready for map rendering on my newest mesh, just gotta get the uv's in place. I'll post the results when I'm done.

[ReplicA]

So I rendered my normals on my latest model, with xnormal. I mirrored the uv's, and I get this crazy ugly stuff at the seams. Is this something that normally happens? Or is it a setting I'm missing?

BTW, the normal looks FANTASTIC, without using the cage. The only issue I'm having is the seams. Here's hoping I've almost got the hang of xnormal. :)

[MM]

found your problem.
your low poly mesh has normals facing backwards. just reverse normals and bake again.

[ReplicA]

I knew it was something simple! When I run into problems like this, and I end up spend a ton of time on trying figure out what's wrong, it's always something simple. Thanks a TON, MM! I'll definitely remember that if it pops up again.

Anyone have any thoughts on what's going on with that seam on my last post? Does xnormal have a problem with mirrored uv's? I've gone back to that model again, to add some more costume stuff, so I've got some more time. But if anyone knows what's up with the seams there, I think I'd be well prepped to start using xnormal every time.

Thanks again to EVERYONE who helped me in this thread. Huge thanks to MM, and Aftermath for taking the time to download my meshes, open them up, and dig into them to try and find the exact problem. HUGE thanks.

[MM]

np

also your UV (most of it) looked flipped, gotta fix that too.

for mirrored parts i usually delete the part of the mesh with the mirrored UV and then assemble it later after normal map is baked.

overlapping UV is not good for baking normal maps.

so basically, make sure all normals are facing the right direction and your UV are not flipped or overlapping.

[Aftermath]

Ok i played with the models you gave me for about 20 mins and found some things. Right off the bat the model was dark so i tossed in a light into the scene light didnt reflect so i refliped the normals (in 3d max under Surface Properties) and deleted the light and the model showed back up.


didnt i say your normals were fliped awhile ago? So you listen to Mashru over me i see how it is. Is it because he is a pro or is it because he is just a bad ass? Lol im teasing thanks for helping out Mashru, Replica glad to see your getting the hang of xnormal. The only reason i use a cage now on is because of the random geometry showing up in my normals sometimes. The cage seems to fix it for me. But everyone should have a workflow of there own or similar to others and not just one. If anything ever needs a second look replica feel free to pm me. Always down to help figure out the issues when it comes to game art.

Mashru: Love your Da vinci!

[ReplicA]

Sorry, Aftermath, didn't mean anything by it. ;) Actually, I just noticed that something was going wrong with the export, causing the flipped faces. Not sure what is causing it, but now that I think of it, it's probably due to the craptacular uv's. I could have sworn I did them right...

Anyway, I really DO appreciate all the help. I still need to figure out what's going on with the mirrored uv's with the seams. Anybody? :)

[MM]

I still need to figure out what's going on with the mirrored uv's with the seams. Anybody? :)

yea, like i said its the UVs and the normals.

either your UV edges are split there or your normals are broken or both.

since you are mirroring it, create a bake mesh that only has the portion of the mesh with the correct UV and make sure your UVs and UV edges are sewed properly.

[ReplicA]

OH, ok... Yeah, not sure what I was thinking there. Guess I thought you were still talking about my other mesh. Thanks, I'll go ahead and do that once I get the costume stuff done. I got some high hopes for xnormal now. :)

[Aftermath]

its all good replica if i came off as mad im not i was just giving you a hard time, my envolvment was purely to get this worked through. Mashru seems to have hit the issue on the head. So im glad something sparked here and you learned and got the issues worked out for the most part.

Anytime man!

[ReplicA]

I took no offense, Aftermath, I knew you were messing with me. That's why I put the winky-eye smilie on my reply. :D

I'll post my results with my current models normals, when I get to them. The funny thing is, though, I keep going back to the high res to mess with it some more... I added more costume stuff, I gave him a sacrificial blade that I'm gonna be entering into the current sculpting mini, I'll probably be adding more skin details as well. Not having to keep track of polycounts on my high res as much as I used to, is opening more doors for possibilities with my work. :) I do hope you guys will like the results.

[ReplicA]

Well, I got almost everything going right for this model this time. I took your advice MM, and exported just the half that needs rendering, since it's mirrored uv's, and that solved most of the seam issues, but it's still giving me that tell tale seam down the middle. Here's an example. I tweaked the uv's a bit, to see if that would help, but it didn't. Any ideas for this?

[EDIT] Forgot to mention that along the back the seams pretty much disappear, so not sure what to do about this. Kinda wanna avoid any PS editing if at all possible.

[Ged]

what are you using to view these models? how does the model look in the xnormal viewer are the seams still there?

[ReplicA]

Thanks Ged, had to check that in the xnormal viewer instead of max's scanline. But it's still showing up in the xnormal viewer as well. And I'm not seeing anything obvious on the normal map, so I guess it's gotta be a uv issue

[ReplicA]

If it helps, here's a bigger render showing the seam disappear the lower it goes. I've changed uv's, rendered, and re-rendered, and still have no idea what's wrong. Any help would appreciated, as I'm completely lost here.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4476/seerseam01es8.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seerseam01es8.jpg)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/seerseam01es8.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img525/seerseam01es8.jpg/1/)

[Bertmac]

man awesome posts here, this was just my problem of today, and now i understand so much more.
you could almost make a tutorial out of this thread
Thanks

[ReplicA]

So I've tried unticking discard back-face hits, then unticking closest hit if ray fails, as well as trying the full symmetrical low poly model, and I'm still getting that seam. I'm at a total loss as to what to do with this.

Here's my uv's and normals for the part that screwing up, if anything pops out at anyone, lemme know.

[Maph]

Your normal map is correct, the problem you're seeing has to do with the vertex tangent basis of the renderer/engine in question or the shader's implementation of mirrored UV's.

The head for example:
At the edges of the UV shell where the mirroring happens, the resulting normals at those vertices are bent in opposite directions from each other, when you actually want them to be the same.

There's no 100% way to fix this in all situations, but neutralizing the normals at the edges (read: setting them to 0) using this technique ( http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=51088 ) can surely help.
If that doesn't work, there's not much you can do about it besides trying to get your hands on a cleverly written shader that does handle this properly, or a new engine. Worst case scenario, you'll have to re-orient the mirror seam to hide the artifact and rebake your normal map.

[ReplicA]

Thanks, Maph. I'll give that tutorial a try, and see what I can come up with. Unfortunately, by the time I saw this reply, I had already given up, and redid the uv's of the head, and got rid of the mirroring on them. So far, it's looking decent, not a whole heap of detail loss, nowhere near as much as I thought there would be. But I do wanna figure out how to fix that issue for when it pops up next time, so I'll be running through that tut.

[Maph]

No worries, it gave me a lot of headaches at the time as well. ;)
Luckily our engine handles this correctly most of the time, but it sure as hell isn't fail-proof.

And there's no real fix to this. A well written shader can surely cover a lot, and will work in most of situations. But in an ideal world, you'd have your renderer matching the tangent basis calculations done by the used baker (xnormal, Topogun, Max, XSI, etc...) to minimize discordancies between the two. And that's something you can't do unless you've got access to the core of the renderer... ;)

[Arkadius]

Man I'm glad I found this thread, theres a lot of useful information. But I'm still having a problem and I hope some one can help me.

I've been pulling my hair out trying to fix my normal map seams. Its not that the seams are along a mirrored UV but along my UV seams all of them. I cant figure out what it is... my UVs aren't inverted or overlapped.
I offer a cookie in return!