So, you wanna make games eh?

[GregX999]

Hi all,

My first post here --- wanted to say "Hi" and "Wow!! I'm blown away by the art on this site!" :praise: as well as ask a question...

I'm looking for advice from 3d artists already in the game industry. Basically, I'm wondering how realistic it is for me to try to get into 3d modeling/animation for video games as a career change. And what would my best path be?


About me: :paper:

- I'm 35 and have been a web designer/programmer for the last 12 years. Freelance for the last 4 years. I'm VERY tired of it and want to change.

- I have a BS degree in film/video production (nope, never used it for anything after graduating)

- I used to mess around with 3d programs years ago - mostly Imagine (anyone remember that?) and Lightwave.

- I've recently learned Rhino while taking a CAD course for something else.

- I'm quite a fast learner when it comes to 3d software.

- I know Photoshop like the back of my hand. And I can use it to create pretty good textures for models - I'm good at drawing dirt stains and rust and "fake 3d" things to map to flat surfaces (like screws, scratches or stitches) and whatnot.

- I've been learning 3ds Max on my own through tutorials.

- I'm currently in the advantageous situation of not having to pay rent - that should last until April or May. So I have very little monthly expenses right now and can afford to work just a few hours a week. (So lots of free time to learn.)

- Right now I can see myself being one, or a mix, of a character, vehicle or environmental modeler or a texture map artist. I enjoy all of those aspects. I don't think I've done enough 3d work just yet to really know if I have a particular talent for one over the others. I've only dabbled in animating my models, so I'm not so sure about that just yet.


My main questions are: :think:

- How hard (in general) is it to get into the industry?

- What level would you expect a portfolio to be at from an entry level applicant or co-worker? (Maybe point me to some images in the gallery or from other websites?)

- How much content should an entry level portfolio have?

(Those last two points are just so I can have an idea of what I'd have to accomplish before I even tried to apply for a position.)

- Does anyone have an opinion of gameinstitute.com or their 3ds Max courses? (From someone whose taken the courses or someone who sees finished work from graduates.) I'm good with learning on my own through tutorials and whatnot, but it's nice to have a structured course - especially one geared towards game content. Also, that school appeals because it's inexpensive and not an actual 2yr or 4yr degree (since I already have a BS).

- Is it even possible to learn enough JUST by using tutorials and books and playing around? Or is some sort of course pretty mandatory?


And in any case, I look forward to trying my hand at some of the mini competitions once I get a bit more of a handle on 3ds Max. :thumb:


Thanks for any advice you can offer!
Greg

[GutsandBolts]

Best thing to do is go pick up a couple of games on the shelf and compare your work to those, if you cant match it your not ready. Next pick something and stick to it, right now environment artists seem to be hard to find, but that seems to be due to how much more time envinronments are taking now.
Another thing to consider, given your background, is Game UI to get in the door.

Since you already went through film school I would save your money classes teaching software are often wasted, buy a couple DVDs and practice a lot.

[nihilicon]

I'm really interested in reading the replies to this thread and it's particularly good to hear (from GutsandBolts) that there is a shortage of environment artists as that's where I'd really like to be eventually. I'd like to add one question that I'm almost afraid to ask:

Do you think that age matters? I'm slightly older than our friend Greg there and it worries me a bit as everyone here seems to be the other side of 35 :)

[LowRez]

I think this "play a game and see if your as good" is bollocks

No way should an entry level kid/35 year old if its a career change ;) "Need" a gears of war quality portfolio,

What you need is a portfolio that shows your artistic ability, your understanding of the programs you use at "your" current level, and lets put it this way, as long as you have solid work which shows a bit of flair, the industry will mould you into shape as your surrounded by senior artists who are mostly very happy to share their skills...

this whole Idea that you won't get a job until your producing top level stuff is a false idea that makes alot of shy'er people who are good artists wait far too long before applying/showing work, I'd say get your reel started a few small environments with props, (like a room, or section of street) to a polished level an not nececaraly a proffessional level is enough to get you an entry level job where you will then do a fair bit of grunt work that'll get your work speed and practice up,

Also one thing compareing to games does effect is overall polish - Gears of war has a massive lighting rig and shaders for example that unless your prepared to spend time on won't get that effect in a render,


oh and gutsandbolts is spot on about UI artists, we get harly any applications that anyone with good 2d knowledge and understanding of icons has a good chance of walking into a vacancy..

Skills I'd expect from an environment artist Junior - good understanding of shape, silloutte and form, good 3d topology skills, decent texturing skills at least editing from photos, knowledge of normal mapping and specular etc, knowledge of lighting,

most other things can be taught to you on the job, most other things you'll improve and learn to a good level on the job, also you'll learn double what you've ever learned about 3d modelling and game in the first year of your games industry career, so knowing everything isn't nececarry at all...

[LowRez]

Oh and Greg do you have some work samples? even basic stuff, the sooner you get your stuff out on show the sooner people can see what advice you'd need and maybe point you towards specific jobs, If you know PS as well as you say you could probably apply as a texture artist or UI artist with only a few months of portfolio work....

[Rasmus Holmgren]

Inspiring post, I'm glad to hear that not just 16-year-olds want to get into games :) I'd say that as long as you have the drive and basic talent, I don't see what's to stop you. I learnt everything from playing around with tutorials and trusting my ability. Find out what niche you like best and push yourself. Ultimately it's your portfolio that counts, not your age or your education - right, guys? Now start making some stuff and post it on the forums!

[Maph]

LowRez makes some good points there! Getting an entry level position shouldn't be überhard as long as you can display a proper set of artistic skills and ambition to grow as an artist imho.:)

[Blenderhead]

I'm really interested in reading the replies to this thread and it's particularly good to hear (from GutsandBolts) that there is a shortage of environment artists as that's where I'd really like to be eventually. I'd like to add one question that I'm almost afraid to ask:

Do you think that age matters? I'm slightly older than our friend Greg there and it worries me a bit as everyone here seems to be the other side of 35 :)

There might be a shortage of environment artists actually in the industry, but I'd hurry up if I was you; on forums these days environment art is seen almost as often as character work! There is going to be lots of competition for those positions.

I also agree with lowrez; going out and buying Killzone 2 and then thinking your work has to be as good as that is not even remotely accurate.

Greg, I suggest you maybe buy a few DVD's (or downloads). Have you got any idea what part of game design you want to end up in? You have a decades worth of experience in a field; this looks good on a resume. Also, you might be able to actually use those skills in the development!

Here are some links to DVDs/downloads. I personally have not bought any of these yet but I plan to buy the Massive Black ones very soon.

http://dvd.massiveblack.com/downloads.html#coro

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/



- I'm currently in the advantageous situation of not having to pay rent - that should last until April or May. So I have very little monthly expenses right now and can afford to work just a few hours a week. (So lots of free time to learn.)



Take part in Dominance War. It's the biggest character game art comp around, and it will probably end just as soon as you have to start paying rent again :D I reccomend starting out small, not going for something too grand, and use this time to learn from others. This is a very helpful forum. :thumb:

[Ballo]

If you can learn faster and you are good, probably you can find a job but this year is complicated. In my opinion, you should take this year for learning.

but rembenber, videogame programers earn more money and they find job quickly. :)

[Shakedown]

Hi Greg! So glad you posted this topic.
I am in a very similar position than you and reading the post from Low Rez is inspiring!
I am finding this Forum a great place to learn and I think you should start joining the minis as soon as you can.....there you can work shoulder to shoulder with artists that have been working in the industry for years....and they are usually very willing to share and help out!

[GregX999]

Wow, thanks for all the great replies!! I'm feeling very positive about trying to "break into" game art now. I'm totally excited to get up-to-speed with 3dsmax so I can start posting WIPs and getting feedback. (Gimme a week...)

I think I'm leaning a bit more towards environment and environment texture design. Which I guess fits my past experience well. Also, I play miniature table-top games (ie: WH40K) and I love modeling the terrain and buildings that the little dudes fight over (yeah, I know it's not the same skill-set, but it's in the same spirit.) :D

Do environment artists typically also build "asssets" like vehicles, weapons, robots, etc.? Those things really appeal to me too. (but probably to just about everyone else as well...)

If I were to start somewhere doing UI design, would that pigeon-hole me? Or is it typical to move around to different jobs on a project or from project to project?

I'm glad some other people are finding this topic interesting - I was surprised I didn't see anything similar when I searched through the back-posts.

Thanks again!
Greg

[Buzzy]

I think, with your extensive graphic design background, that you could likely find a job as a GUI artist or texture artist right now, with little or no training. That might be the best "backdoor" route for you. You might be 40 before you're a capable enough 3d character artist to get that kind of job on your own. So, by getting that foot in the door as a purely 2d artist will allow you to get 'on the job' training, which is MUCH MUCH more useful than tutorials or school. In my first year as a professional, I learned far more than I ever learned in 4 years of school and the many years of self-taught dabbling.

So, my best recommendation would be to take the GUI route. All the UI artists I know were previously web developers (in fact nearly all of them are still doing it as freelance). It might be more difficult at a larger company, but at most smaller companies, its rather easy to move laterally. A few of our UI guys have gone back and forth as 3d artists within the company.

[LowRez]

Wow, thanks for all the great replies!! I'm feeling very positive about trying to "break into" game art now. I'm totally excited to get up-to-speed with 3dsmax so I can start posting WIPs and getting feedback. (Gimme a week...)

I think I'm leaning a bit more towards environment and environment texture design. Which I guess fits my past experience well. Also, I play miniature table-top games (ie: WH40K) and I love modeling the terrain and buildings that the little dudes fight over (yeah, I know it's not the same skill-set, but it's in the same spirit.) :D

Do environment artists typically also build "asssets" like vehicles, weapons, robots, etc.? Those things really appeal to me too. (but probably to just about everyone else as well...)

If I were to start somewhere doing UI design, would that pigeon-hole me? Or is it typical to move around to different jobs on a project or from project to project?

I'm glad some other people are finding this topic interesting - I was surprised I didn't see anything similar when I searched through the back-posts.

Thanks again!
Greg

At our company the game I work on is heavily UI driven so a UI artist does that and generally that alone, but at other smaller companys Im sure the ability to be flexible and do prop design/modelling wqould be handy.

The thing about UI design is you could do it as your primary job almost now, and build up your skillset in 3d in your own time before moving to do 3d once your up to speed and have been learning off your colleagues... of course the downside to starting as UI is if your good at it a company wont want to shift you into 3d as your UI skills will be hard to replace.

[GutsandBolts]

lowres - Let me clarify that a bit. If you want to work at Epic I would think you should be able to at minimum be able to make something that could go in Gears... I'm not saying you need to be able to make a lead character concept to final just be able to produce art of a quality that can be used. I don’t think this is a rule by any means just a gauge because perhaps because I find myself wading through portfolios of people that are not ready, or even close.

I say this not to discourage people from applying because I interview people all the time that we hire on potential not proven skill.

[LowRez]

lowres - Let me clarify that a bit. If you want to work at Epic I would think you should be able to at minimum be able to make something that could go in Gears... I'm not saying you need to be able to make a lead character concept to final just be able to produce art of a quality that can be used. I don’t think this is a rule by any means just a gauge because perhaps because I find myself wading through portfolios of people that are not ready, or even close.

I say this not to discourage people from applying because I interview people all the time that we hire on potential not proven skill.

No worries, I just get a little frustrated when I hear that, when the truth is that you learn and practice your skills so much via working that you improve drastically on the job.

The minimum is you should be able to make something that goes in gears... true, but your first job might be Lod'ing other peoples work and re-nameing files and bug fixing for 6 months, before you even get the chance to make a quality prop for the game as a junior,

Junior level - in my opinion is a "Raw" artist that clearly has the artistic ability just hasnt polished the game skills yet, good skills yes, great skills unlikely. If saw a portfolio for saw someone who could drop into a team and start creating assets for something like gear at the drop of a hat, and he was a junior we'd be calling him up not waiting for applications....

Anyways it's all subjective Ive met art leads who are casual about juniors and others who expect alot for nothing, in reality a junior artist is like a junior doctor, they've done the training, got the job now they get the crap cases/art jobs no one else wants to do till they're considered good enough to be called a doctor. Its a right of passage if anything.

[Mincher]

So, what would you guys say is a good balance for a portfolio? I'd like to get into character modeling (like everyone!) but I have the feeling that employers would like to see some diversity.

Would a couple of characters, some weapons, some props/environment assets and perhaps a vehicle be enough if it was of a good quality?

Also, if aiming for being a modeler, how important are stages like concept art? I mean, if you can draw averagely, but model well, does that go against you?

Thanks!

[LowRez]

If you want to do characters... then do characters, diversity is fine if your applying for an allround role, but if you want to be a character artist just focus on them... if you show diversity they will give you a job as a prop/environment modeller because they know you can do it.

[Buzzy]

Also, if aiming for being a modeler, how important are stages like concept art? I mean, if you can draw averagely, but model well, does that go against you?

The purpose of putting concept art in a modelling portfolio would only be to show that you can follow a concept. If you think your drawing skills are a weak point, then I would suggest this: model stuff people already know.... fanart if you will. Do a batman....or a hellboy...or something else that people know well without having to see a concept drawing for comparison.

[Mincher]

Thanks folks! I'm constantly improving my concept work for personal progress so I would like to integrate it into my folio eventually. I guess it wouldn't do any harm to include an established character to show off what I can do.

Thanks again peeps. :)

[mr_ace]

but your first job might be Lod'ing other peoples work and re-nameing files and bug fixing for 6 months, before you even get the chance to make a quality prop for the game as a junior,

is this what ive got in store wen i become a junior?!?
what have i done....

[LowRez]

is this what ive got in store wen i become a junior?!?
what have i done....

haha not always, if you join mid project though chances are you will get tasks to do with logic and lod'ing that the more senior artists have neglected :P I started at the start of my project so was lucky and got to do a vast chunk of the art design of the campaign map in Empire:total war - out Mar 3rd :P just had our first review build sent off can't wait to hear what they say....

[GregX999]

Pardon my ignorance... what is LOD'ing?

Greg

[mr_ace]

level of detailing. basically, a character, gun or whatever has various levels of detail, ie a first person gun might be 7000 polys, wheras a when that gun is seen in 3rd person, its swapped out for like a 2k version. and so on....
so basically, lod work will just be welding stuff up, trying to get the poly count down

[mr_ace]

btw, congrats lowrez on ur game, hopefully you'll get some of your work out of the nda to post up on here ;-)

[Custom Chaos]

hey all this thread is very informative....

and this is the first thread i choose to open since i joined GA

Will be looking forward in to meeting more of you Game junkies.LOL

Dont hate the game Grab a controller.

[AdV3nt]

Hey Guys

I am in my first year studying Animation in South Afirca which specializes in character work. I understand how the pipeline works and have a fair technical knowhow with regards to Maya and Zbrush but my drawing and anatomy skills aren't exactly anything great.

I want to get into character modelling but from what i know about the industry here in SA there is virtually nothing with regards to games, as a result to get a job here a person needs to generalise. I have always been fascinated by making games and then since reading up here and finding out what i can from my lecturers i am even more fascinated and enthusiastic about it :)

But i have a serious question with regards to what Lowres said, would a company consider you even if you lived in another country to take you in as a junior modeller unless you have anything other than a professional portfolio? Would they even consider you and give you an interview? Is there a good chance of this happening for someone like me once i have completed my studies?

[rv_el]

Quality over quantity on the portfolio. At some point you should be replacing things your showing the employer. Not adding to them.

Slam out work until it looks like something you'd like to see in a game. Compaire it to good artists and get good artsist to be frank with you.


You can make it with out any formal schooling, and i have friends that are proof of that - but you must know these friends are balls out people. They are a type of person that fits that mold. And that type is not really a "fuck school, whatever, i'm saving money" type... not saying you are. just saying you dont need school if you've never really been one who needed too much guidance. Some get kinda lucky and fall into a job in a strange way and then learn on the job. I wouldn't bank on that, not these days :). But its true. some that made it and never had schooling dont talk too much about how their brothers cousin was like "Aye.. aye yo.. yo wanna make a game art or what!" and got em a job and literaly learned 3d on the job. This has happened. Others learn from forums and tutorials though and practice hard with out having to have devices to get them to I.E grades/homework etc....

[makoa]

aim for the top, bust your ass, and DO YOU.

if you wanna be an awesome character artist, focus all your energy on becoming an awesome character artist. look at the best stuff out there, compare yourself to that and fill in the gap. learning the 3D stuff is actually pretty easy, it's the core art skills that are much more difficult -- anatomy, form, rhythm, color, design, and how to implement all that in both 2D (for textures) and 3D for modeling/sculpting takes a lot of time and understanding before they are mastered (if ever). but each model you do will show improvement. it took me about 15 complete character models before i was competent enough. also, don't compromise yourself. before i landed a job, i did a buncha crap that i thought companies would like to see. environment props, various items, and characters in a style that i didn't necessarily like. consequently, my heart wasn't in it, i didn't particularly like the stuff, it showed, and i didn't get the job. it wasn't until i said 'fuck dat shit' and just did stuff that i thought was hella cool, put my heart into it, did it in my style, according to my timeline, that i got a great opportunity, at a company that i really liked, doing the same style that i have. and now i'm really happy and am getting more and more responsibilities at work and doing stuff that i love every day. nothing is impossible.

[poopinmymouth]

If you´re asking what list of stuff you need, you´ve got the wrong mindset.

You should be doing whatever it is you enjoy, because you enjoy it. Be it characters, environments, UI, etc. Certainly you can have an end goal of working in the game industry, but if you´re trying to match a bullet point list, you´re not gonna put in the time or effort to achieve the portfolio quality needed.

Think of it this way, no one cares what your story is, they want someone who can contribute on their game at the level they need. They don´t handicap your entry because you´re fresh out of school. If you can bring it, they will hire you, but there are so many studios going under, leaving talented, experienced artists out there needing work, they are gonna hire whoever has the best folio, period.

If you apply to a company, your work should absolutely be able to drop right in to it and be the same quality, If not, that company´s likelihood of hiring you is zero. It´s not school part 2, it´s a business that needs to make money, and they can´t do that if their new hires have to be babysat by their experienced artists who could be doing their own tasks.

It´s entirely possible to be a ready-to-go artist of any discipline before having any experience. Quality wise by working hard, painting, life-drawing, doing tons of personal projects and comps, working your artistic ability up. Tech wise by learning all the myriad of game engines that have mod tools, and the hundreds of mods you can work on to learn pipeline requirements and working within a team.

[Supernova87]

Hey all.

I'm basically gonna graduate in a few months but pretty much have completed my uni course now so trying to build and strengthen my online portfolio.

My question is, at the time of recession like this would it be best for me to just apply for any type of job e.g. environment artist, character artist or vehicle artist even though my main goal would be to eventually pursue a job in creating 3d characters once i get more industry experience?

[shadowmonkey]

I'm really interested in reading the replies to this thread and it's particularly good to hear (from GutsandBolts) that there is a shortage of environment artists as that's where I'd really like to be eventually. I'd like to add one question that I'm almost afraid to ask:

Do you think that age matters? I'm slightly older than our friend Greg there and it worries me a bit as everyone here seems to be the other side of 35 :)

Sadly there insnt a shortage of Enviroment artist,more the case of not enough enviroment artist jobs.Age dont matter im htting 35 myself

[Gill Bates]

As an artist ready to get my feet wet in the industry this thread is priceless for me. Thanks!

[typhus22]

There are 2 ways to get into the industry: either your lucky and are there at the right place/time or you are that skilled. You can't control luck so you better get to being the best you can. Degrees don't really matter but they help. Friends and connections could be that extra push to get you through that door but at the end of the day unless your boss is your best friend its your portfolio that will give you that interview needed to get you into that door. Like alot of the others have said, keep pushing your limits and skills and don't give up. The experience of working in a games company is worth all the sweat and tears. Cheers.

[Richard Kain]

There are actually quite a few opportunities for breaking into the industry. There are more now than there used to be. Thanks to new digital distribution solutions, it is actually possible to go indie with a much smaller investment of time and resources.

The obvious platform for this approach is the iPhone. Producing an iPhone game requires a relatively small investment in terms of money, time, and skill. A decent understanding of code is enough to come to grips with the iPhone SDK. There are enough open-source tools these days to provide everything you would need for a simple title. And a $100 investment is enough to get your game on the iTunes App store. If you can manage to sell upwards of 50 thousand copies of a $1 game, you've paid your salary for the year. Sell that many copies of a $5 game, and you have the capital to hire on another coder and or artist for your second attempt. (or just pay off your mortgage)

Good luck.

[CharlieBaker]

Hey man,

I think you have enough info to read through, but I wanted to throw in a few things.

Firstly you are the first person I've ever heard mention Imagine!!! I used that application years ago when 3D studio was still in DOS! That and I was all about Deluxe Animation which was an application made by EA back in the day!

I was 12 then, now 28, and I just graduated with a BFA in Game Art Design. I spent years learning traditional art stuff, and finally realized that the video game industry was actually an option for me. It is my firm believe that I would be much further ahead now if I had just grabbed the Gnomon Library, and studied on a forum like this and ConceptArt.

Don't get me wrong there is something great to having the people around and making connections at a school, but I think you can do the same thing here. Just not in person. I personally think education, especially in this industry is going to change in a huge way as video tutorials get better and better. It is the best way I've found to learn these apps. You cut through the crap, and get right to learning from a professional.

If you are committed you can get pretty far pretty quick. It really all depends on your art skills right now. If you can draw you can use ZBrush.

I'm currently on the job hunt, and it's proving to be tricky. I do wish I had jumped into looking for internships, and taking anything I could. I did take a job in casual games, but it didn't really relate to the work I want to be doing now, so be careful in the paths you take. The truth is, if you have the will, there's a way.

Good luck man!

[CharlieBaker]

Dude I used to use Imagine way back in the day. It was pretty cool! That was way back when I was doing 2D stuff in Deluxe Animation, and when 3D Studio was in DOS! Hey, you can do anything you want. If there's a will there's a way. Don't bother with school at this point. Commit to going through the Gnomon disks one at a time; spend time here, and at Conceptart.org, a draw all the time. I've seen people explode into amazing artists in under a few years with nothing but minor skills in art laying dormant for their entire life. It's really pretty inspiring.

As for looking for finding a job, I'm a recent grad, and it's been kinda tricky. I wish I had jumped into an internship much earlier and learned more on the inside of things. Look for things in where u want to be, take freelance stuff, and work on mods.

Good luck man!