3ds max or Maya?

[MRico]

Hello guys,

This isn't a 3ds max vs. Maya thread. I'm just wondering....

...I see a lot of guys here that are working in studios. That's what I want to end up doing. I use 3ds max, but more and more I'm seeing that they prefer Maya. Now, for you guys working in the field already...does it really matter what software you use primarily? Or should I start learning Maya as well as 3ds max? I know the modeling is pretty much the same in any program, just the tools/how to go about it is different. I would just like to see what you guys think about this.

[Buzzy]

I wouldn't say either program is preferred over any other, so don't worry about that. Generally, only film/commercial studios care about what software you know. This is because they tend to hire people for a single project and expect them to hit the ground running. Most game studios however hire permanent employees, so they don't mind a little on-the-job training. However, it's still not a bad idea to at least be familiar with Maya.

I've used both quite a bit. From my experience, the differences break down like this: For animation, there is virtually no difference between the two. For modelling, the processes are more or less the same but the tools are in different places. For tech stuff like rigging, the differences are much more significant.

[MRico]

Yeah, I've seen a bunch of Gnomon dvd's and it's all the same stuff, except Maya has that weird spider-web menu when you right click. I'm just disappointed with my school choice. I was promised I would learn Max and Maya and know all the stuff to get a job in a game company...that was a load of shit. I have an A.A., $40k debt and no job....and seeing local companies like Activision and Insomniac say they want Extensive knowledge in Maya...just sucks for me. The school by the way was ITT Sylmar, campus...stay away!

[Snowfly]

I don't think you can get hired off the quality of the artwork in your portfolio just yet. There's one chibi comic character, a fine art-ish Zbrush sculpt, and another unfinished sculpt. You can get hired yet since it seems your art is fairly competent, but you need more commercial quality models in there.

At the studio I work at, we use both :)

[MRico]

Snowfly: Thank you, sir and I agree with you, I've been on and off 3d for the past 3 years. My dumbass never finished anything. Probably at a slow pace, but I'll be improving my portfolio.

[ilegacy]

My personal(!) expieriences with Maya7 during my 2 years study time at the Games Academy: a very complex, complicated, very buggy programm which has to be filled with some plugins to be ready for game modelling.

My personal(!) expieriences with Max8 during my last 2 years in a Studio creating Sacred2: A stable, fast tool which is ready for game modelling without any plugins.

There are new versions and Autodesk bought Maya - i think now Maya should have all Tools a game artist need. I would prefer Max, but Maya would be OK - because my only important target is to work on games :) Which tools is not interesting for me :D

[LowRez]

My personal(!) expieriences with Maya7 during my 2 years study time at the Games Academy: a very complex, complicated, very buggy programm which has to be filled with some plugins to be ready for game modelling.

My personal(!) expieriences with Max8 during my last 2 years in a Studio creating Sacred2: A stable, fast tool which is ready for game modelling without any plugins.

There are new versions and Autodesk bought Maya - i think now Maya should have all Tools a game artist need. I would prefer Max, but Maya would be OK - because my only important target is to work on games :) Which tools is not interesting for me :D

I'll be needing a copy of that max I think it must be a secret non autodesk rip off that doesn't include poor design and slow interface that plagues all other versions of max.... I've only really used max, so for 10 years nearly I've been using, and it gets more bloated and broken at every version, autodesk seem to just tack new features onto the program every year without much thought for performance or how things conflict. Getting crashes with the cut tool for example, and the Direct3d version of the game sporadically crashing. And this is on one of the best machines in our studio.... Im used to max and when it works it works great but for a program in it's 11th version or something it's very buggy and undertested , every year it feels like we're paying to beta test a product, not many other industrys could release products so buggy then ask for us to bugtest them for the nice sum of £3k

[devoid]

yeah max is buggy and gets worse as time goes on but out of the 4 companies I've worked with only one didn't use it exclusively. I know there are companies out there that use maya, but I don't know anyone who works at one of them.
I will tell you though that if someone is good enough we have no problems training them on different software. We've done it a few times (mostly animators) and it usually only takes about 2 weeks of steady work in it to get pretty much as good as they were with the other program.
I'd focus more on getting good quality game ready assets than learning a new program. Your portfolio is what sells you not the list of software known.

[Liam]

Well i personally use 3ds Max but i am pretty sure companies would not mind if you used Max over Maya or visa versa as long as your works good, i do intend on learning Maya after i master Max so i know both to be safe..in many years to come :D

[Yozora]

I've been checking out a lot of job ads and I can say that most of them use 3d max, maybe around 70% max, 20% maya and 10% dont say.
I dont see where you are getting the info for more and more using maya...

Anyway it doesnt matter, they are all easy to learn once you are an advanced 3d modeler.

[mr_ace]

yozora, most uk companies seem to be maya based these days...

[Yung]

It doesn't really matter which you used, Max, maya, hell even blender :D. Learn one as much as you can first. It will be easy to pick the other one. Unless of course you aim to be a TD one day but heh most TD seems to know both anyway :D.

I would personally advice that you stick with Max for now. I love maya, but heh I prefer modeling in Max :d haha

[Yozora]

yozora, most uk companies seem to be maya based these days...

says who? I've been looking at the job ads and company websites and from what I gathered, its mainly max. And to be able to say "most" use maya? You must be pretty confident in whatever your source of information is, I'm really interested to see it too.

[JacqueChoi]

I prefer Max. The company I'm currently employed with uses Maya (but from my experience, Max is generally preferred).

I think Animators generally prefer Maya, while Modellers tend to prefer Max.

UVs in Maya is a bit nicer too, but Alpha's are very buggy in the viewport.


:/

[InVisibleVertex]

yozora, most uk companies seem to be maya based these days...

i think you seemed to be a little confused. From what I've seen, most UK companies are Max users. Some use Maya, but essentially it seems Max is far more used. I don't know where you heard it the other way around but i'm sure its misinformed.

it doesn't really matter anyway as most employers want to see good modellers, because the skills can potentially be transferred into either program with a bit of practice

[MRico]

I don't know if you guys are aware of this, didn't really want to start a new thread.

Autodesk is laying off 750 of their employees, which is 10% of their staff. More on it here....

http://www.cgenie.com/articles/95-autodesk-wheres-the-money-going.html

and here...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Autodesk-to-cut-750-jobs-sees-apf-14070528.html

[MM]

i started with max (max R2) then later learned maya(maya 4.5 and above). having done 3d modeling in both i found out maya to be much superior modeler than max. maya is not for the beginners though.

[Neox]

well if you are saying this from the standpoint of max R2 then i'd agree, but the modelling has changed quite a bit since that time ;)

[MM]

well if you are saying this from the standpoint of max R2 then i'd agree, but the modelling has changed quite a bit since that time ;)

no, not from the stand point of R2. that is only the first version of max i started with.

currently in my home PC i have the latest of both.

the fact that you still have to use "edit poly" modifier to edit a polygon model is silly.

max has lot of "out of the box" solutions like good bevel, shell and other modifiers that make life easier but at the fundamental level maya is a superior modeler.

[Neox]

you don't need the modifier to edit something, just collapse the generic object into mesh, poly, nurbs or patches it really depends on what you want to do, but in general i'd also like to see the editable mesh stuff beeing trown away :P

[Buzzy]

having done 3d modeling in both i found out maya to be much superior modeler than max. maya is not for the beginners though.

I would have to thoroughly disagree with that statement MM. I think that when it comes down to it, its mostly just personal taste, and each package is practically equal. Each program has positives and negatives. Its up to the user to decide which positives are more important and which negatives he's willing to put up with.
I can say, however, that our studio uses Max and every modeller we've hired who previously worked in Maya did not want to switch back to Maya after using Max.

the fact that you still have to use "edit poly" modifier to edit a polygon model is silly.
This sounds like you just don't have enough experience using Max's modifier stack. It is a VERY powerful tool. Perhaps this explains why you dislike Max.

Anyway, this thread seems to be wandering. This wasn't intended as a Max vs. Maya battle ground. AutopsySoldier just wanted to know how important it is to know different softwares.

[Ballo]

XSI is superior to Maya and 3dsMax together.:) but I work with 3dsmax, a lot of companies work with it.

[DreameR]

it doesnt matter whether you think XSI, Maya, Max, Silo, Blender or Modo is better.

essentially its all about your modelling skills, it has very little to do with the program you use.

If your awesome, you'll make good shit regardless.

[Ritorian]

yup, agreed

[MM]

This sounds like you just don't have enough experience using Max's modifier stack. It is a VERY powerful tool. Perhaps this explains why you dislike Max.

it doesnt matter, i dont want to use the modifier stack or a modifier or collapse or anything else just to be able to edit at sub-object level.
maya's history and input/outputs does what modifier stack does, except i dont need any modifiers or collaps a poly model.
this is just one thing though, another huge problem max had for a long long time (may be not the absolute latest version) is the UV editor. you had to apply a modifier to edit UV and couldnt edit multiple objects UV at same time.
in maya there is just a UV editor window where u can see/edit multiple object without hassle and not to mention the UV smudge brush(like a UV liquify brush) that is priceless for organic UV editing (which has been in maya for a long time and not in max).

but i do agree that a lot of this depends on what you think is important and more efficient for your workflow.

[Buzzy]

Max does have a horrible UV editor. They've added a bunch of improvements lately, especially in 2009, but Maya is still better for UVs.

I can understand not liking the modifier stack. Many people don't. But you have to kind of think of it like layers in Photoshop....would you like to work in Photoshop without layers? Just a single layer with history? Its a similar concept....but it can be a bit awkward sometimes.

[Pickman]

Love max myself. I like the coding and submenus in maya though. I think it would behoove a game modeler to be an expert in one, but familiar with the other. So just pick one and run with it. Oh and make some cool stuff and post it. Cause I like to look at cool stuff.

And speaking of Max 09', anyone else have poblems with the UV editor crashing? Mine likes to crash when I have "show edge distortion" on, or when I use the keyboard to group uv's outside the zero space. I love whenever they add super cool new features that make the software unstable.

[MRico]

Thanks a lot for the input guys! I decided to learn Maya as well as 3ds max...just..well...it's better in the long run for me. I decieded to model my room, lol...This is about a day and half with no previous maya knowledge.

It's actually pretty cool, Maya and 3ds max definetly have their pluses and negatives...I fucking love the "Insert Edge Loop Tool" in Maya, such a fucking time saver! I know Max has the Ring->Connect and I had it set to "C" hotkey but I still had to go in the little menu in case I wanted the loop to not be centered...anyways...I wanted to post my first maya experience work here instead of a new thread....oh!...I have a question...

When I press the "2" key on my keyboard, is that the same as adding a meshsmooth/turbosmooth? I keep seeing the low poly cage ontop of the smoothed model and it's fucking annoying me!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/autopsysoldier/04.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/autopsysoldier/03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/autopsysoldier/01-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/autopsysoldier/02-2.jpg

[walrus]

And speaking of Max 09', anyone else have poblems with the UV editor crashing? Mine likes to crash when I have "show edge distortion" on, or when I use the keyboard to group uv's outside the zero space. I love whenever they add super cool new features that make the software unstable.

I haven't had this crash in my version of Max '09, but I do have a different problem with the UV editor - I can't seem to do an UNDO in it! I could in earlier versions, but now it doesn't work, and working without an undo is a royal pain in the ass! Anyone know of a fix or workaround?

AutoPsy - some handy keyboard shortcuts for number keys in Max:
2 toggles whether selected faces are filled or outlined
3 toggles wireframe / shaded mode
4 toggles showing/not showing face edges.

Hope that helps... now get back to work on your Kingdom Hearts entry, you only have two days to finish. You were the first one out the door, you'd better complete it!

[Yung]

Pressing 2 and 3 is just a preview smooth. When you render, it resets back. Hope you will start to love Maya as much as I do :P.

[Shadownami92]

I personally prefer Max over Maya, but that just might be do too the versions I was using and the computers.

I use Max version 8 and its one of the smoothest programs I've ever used. Maya I had too many problems with glitches and bugs. A lot also has to do with personal preference. I like basics and simplicity in interface which Max 8 offers. Although Maya (8.5 for me) can do more it's just so much more weighed down since I don't use half of the extra options for particle effects and whatnot thats mostly used for post processed projects.

Also UV's with Chugnuts UV tools and Roadkill doesn't make UVs too much of a problem with Max 8

Modeling wise I think Modo is getting a bit bigger too. So whenever you think that you have the ropes down for Maya and Max (or even possibly XSI too) I recommend trying out Modo for modeling. It's a little different control and set up wise but it's got a lot of nice little features.

[MRico]

Walrus- Thank you brotha...about the UV, do you have all the service pack's installed? That's the only thing I can think off.

About the KH...I kinda had given up on it. I was so dissapointed/angry at how my texturing was coming out. I can't paint for shit. But I'll work on it again today and see if I could pull something decent together.

Yung- How do I apply...ummm a "Turbosmooth" in Maya, so it renders out smoothed?

Shadownami92- Yeah, I think I'm ganna keep max as my primary tool for right now. Since I can model,rig,animate,light and render setup in max...I gave you guys screen shots cuz i don't know how to render in maya, lol. I'm definetly down with trying the modeling features of other programs though. I've also been planning on using XSI since I saw that article on CGsociety on how the made the models using XSI

[kessler]

I like max for enviro things. It has tools like shell and push that bring happiness to the children across the world. Maya has is a better package for anything concerning animation and has a cool shader network which blows max out of the water. In conclusion both packages are awesome for game dev. Learn everything and be a smart kid. Don't tell anyone but I used to even use lightwave. Which by the way is super cheap and awesome. I love you NEWTEK!

[walrus]

Autopsy - good idea! I just got the latest Service Pack for 3DS Max 2009, bu it didn't fix anything. So let me ask you, when you go into the Edit UVW window, do you have the ability to Undo? I don't even see that option in the Edit window nor does it come up in the possible options for keyboard shortcuts in the Modify User Interface>Keyboard menu. (And I know Undo works in Max 7.) I just want to figure out first whether this is a Max problem, or just a Me problem (so if everyone else can Undo, it's a Me problem.)

Also, sorry about my earlier post about number shortcuts - those were obviously for Max (which you don't need) not for Maya (which you do.) I was confused. :D

[kessler]

Since this is a hot thread today I will sneak in a question!! HURRAY! This may sound pretty noob boobish but in photoshop or painter there is a but with moving around the screen then having SICK ASS lag if you dont zoom in then out immediately. This only happens in vista. Who has this issue? and is there a fix other than zoom in zoom out?

[MRico]

walrus- I'm using Max 9 and yeah, I'm able to Undo in the Edt UVW's window, sorry bro, that does sound like a pain in the ass. I stopped using 2009 after having issues with exporting/importing from z-brush...so it could be max that's fucking up...I don't get how tools in previous versions that worked...don't work on the new version...I'm sure soon enough there will be SP2 to download.

[darkfox]

Me personally i use max (now on max 2009) due to the simple reason that I’ve been using it for years along with the polyboost add-on!:paper:
But in short truth they are both owned via Autodesk (along with near everything else) along with now XSI, all they need now is modo!:think:

[cookepuss]

Since this is a hot thread today I will sneak in a question!! HURRAY! This may sound pretty noob boobish but in photoshop or painter there is a but with moving around the screen then having SICK ASS lag if you dont zoom in then out immediately. This only happens in vista. Who has this issue? and is there a fix other than zoom in zoom out?
Never happened with me. I'm on Vista Ultimate x64 and using both apps. Never had lag in either. Make sure that your apps have the most recent patches and that you've got the most recent video card drivers. That's all OT though.

As far as 3D apps go....

I can understand some of MM's criticisms regarding 3dsmax. I too also started using it at v2. For that version, there were some fairly significant workflow problems and quirks. Unlike MM, I didn't have the patience to stay with 3dsmax for the long haul, only dipping my toes into Autodesk waters every now and again. From what I've seen, some of the biggest problems have indeed been addressed since then. Still, some of the design is still a bit obtuse, not to mention dated.

Eh. What do I care. I've been a C4D user for almost 7 years now. :) Plenty, plenty powerful and does what I need and when I need it to. Stable as hell too.

I like Maya, but I don't necessarily like the design. I could easily get used to the GUI, but not how it takes me 2x-3x as many steps to do something as it would in C4D. That's not happening for me. Time is money y'all. :)

In the end, it's all the same sh**. Even when it comes down to the more complex aspects like animation, there has come a greater sense of functional equality over the past 3-4 years. Migrating takes time, but it's far more trivial than in previous years. What you use amounts to personal preference and what the job requires.

[Polyhertz]

I fucking love the "Insert Edge Loop Tool" in Maya, such a fucking time saver! I know Max has the Ring->Connect and I had it set to "C" hotkey but I still had to go in the little menu in case I wanted the loop to not be centered

You can do that in max too with the IC.PolySplitRing plugin (http://illusioncatalyst.com/mxs.php).

[MRico]

Polyhertz- Cool, thanks a lot bro! I'm trying my hardest to stay away from plugins though, I want to learn the bare bones...straight out of the box program. I am a victim of using polyboost though...hey hey...do you know of any free plugin than can do retopo in max? Like polyboost's polydraw?

[kary]

So let me ask you, when you go into the Edit UVW window, do you have the ability to Undo?

Yep you can undo. Do you have the shortcut overide toggle turned on, and that is overriding your normal undo hotkey?

[MRico]

Hey does any one know of a free max script/plugin that can align all the vertices in one click in the UVW editor? Instead of having to scale them to alignment?

[Snowfly]

http://www3.sympatico.ca/psykopat/lnkz/chuggnut1.5.rar

[MRico]

Cool, thanks a lot Snowfly!

[MRico]

This is off topic...but I have a question, hopefully someone can help me...

I'm working on a skatepark, I want it to be real time with next-gen specs...but...what should my specs be? What should be my tri limit and texture size...and how many textures?

I was kinda going off the Unearthly Challenge specs, it says 250K tri limit, with 4096x4096 texture space....are they usual specs for next gen levels? For PS3?

I see it kinda high...since I'm ruining out of ideas and I'm not even at 3K tris yet, lol.

[Ace-Angel]

Depends alot on the item inside the park and hardware. However the stats you gave are just fine.

The PS3 for example can 'stream' levels in real-time, saving much required resources during important times. Infact, it can stream in well over 5-10 million polies per level (the only game that did this was Lair so far I know of). So there are way to optimize things.

However, as they say...always optimize. Save what you can to use it later.

If you have alot of 'rounded' objects, then believe me, 250K flies by in a jiffy. Textures for environments tend to be single larges, with all the candies (Occlusion, Normal, etc), however they can go lower. Generally, important buildings have their own maps.

Could you post up a SS of the park? I'm curious to see about it.

[MRico]

Hey Ace, thanks a lot for the input man! I'm sitting at 13,133tris right now, I think I might add some windows...I dunno...I'm ruining out of ideas! Anyways, heres a screen of Max and a shitty render....I havn't really used mental ray before so I'm struggling to get the lighting to look good.

Hey do you guys know of a good way to have those flouresent bulbs...actually light up the scene? I have them with 100% self illumination...I thought that would help light up the scene...but it doesnt do anything!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/autopsysoldier/WPark05.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/autopsysoldier/Skatepark-1.jpg

[Ace-Angel]

So far, so good. It looks realistic.

You can push the boundaries more abit, but it's not my place to tell you how you want to create your map. Get creative, add a pool, maybe a large pipe in which you can defy the physics as it twist and turn towards the pool.

Windows are a must, they add environmental release.

In mental ray to make lights shine, it's really simple (at least for my shaders).

I simply select the Arch & Design shaders, after that I simple scroll down to the Self-Illumination section and set the option accordingly. Remember to tick 'Illuminate Scene' as that is the one that reflects the light on the surfaces.

[MRico]

Hey Ace, I think I'm blind dude but I can't the find the "Self-Illumination" under Arch & Design shaders, I'm using max 9. I don't know if you're using a newer version than me. I also started a new thread cuz I don't know if the mods would like a WIP thread in the general discussion..it's here

http://gameartisans.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7201

[coldkodiak]

XSI is superior to Maya and 3dsMax together.:) but I work with 3dsmax, a lot of companies work with it.

XSI is so good. Just an awesome, stable all around package, that runs beautifully.

Modo apparently is also a fairly damn good modeling tool.

I last tried the newest version of Maya... very very buggy, slow, and sluggish. :P

Used to be a lot better.


Haven't used Max is ages, but I remember it being decent.