freelance without a contract

[artist_cg]

ok here is a story , i hope i won't look stupid :( , anyway i found this advertisement on some site , a freelance work to make cars for a game company , so i sent my portfolio , now the problem is ,
when i asked the owner about money ,
he said " we all get paid after selling the products " ,
so i said " its ok" ,
now my question , is this how freelance works , no contract , and i just do the job and wait for them to sell then have the money ,
btw the money varies with the selling , " if we sell alot u gain alot , if not then u won't gain alot" ,
ok why did i do it , i am still a student , building my portfolio , i thought to add experience to my resume , thats all ,
thanks for ur time :cool:

btw i don't care about money now , but just wanted to know ,
how to guarantee that he won't take the models and forget about me ?!

[walrus]

Most artists doing freelance get some guarantee - often, a contract - formalizing what the artist gets paid for their work. In this case, there's no guarantee what they'll pay you, or even if you'll get paid. If they tell you the project didn't sell, they won't pay you. If they do sell the project, there doesn't sound like any guarantee that they will tell you truthfully that it sold. Or they could turn around and say, "hey, it sold! Here's your $5." (insert ridiculously low amount of your local currency here.) You don't need these people to build up your portfolio: You can do that on your own without being ripped off by what sounds like a very shady business deal. Good art will get you another job better than being able to say you worked for (or got taken by) some company, and at least you get to keep your rights to your own work, too.

[cookepuss]

freelance without a contract
Never. Ever. Not evah.

"There's no blood thicker than ink." - U2

I don't care if you're a stranger, my brother, or Ghandi. If you want to work with me, then a contract is a must. No hard feeling. In fact, no feelings at all. It's just business.

A contract says, "This is what you do. This is what we expect of you. This is what we do. This is what you should expect of us." In no uncertain terms.

Working without a contract means that you can get stiffed, stonewalled, or otherwise totally screwed. You can say that the company promised you "x" amount of money. They can claim you were promised 1/2 that. You can claim full ownership of the IP. They can claim that you waived that right.

With out any terms, it's the wild wild west. Anything goes. That's not the way to work

Working without any contract is a surefire way to becoming a litigant in a court case.

Freelance is business. Contracts are a part of business. Any client unwilling to work with a contract is a client you don't want. ~Fin~


BTW: You say that you're a student. College or highschool? Just curious. Your pic & bio aren't that helpful in clearing that up for me. :) I don't know how it works in Cairo, but - in the USA - if you're a legal minor (ie. under the age of 18) then contracts are unenforceable. Typically, over here, minors cannot enter into a binding legal contract on their own, unless emancipated. Before you enter into any contract, you need to know a bit about Cairo contract law and how it works for or against you, if at all.

[artist_cg]

i am 22 , its engineering not even related to art , but i am not into engineering , it was a mistake that got there , anyway i used to draw since being a kid and sure like any kid played lots of games , so i ended up here , CG art , anyway thanks for the help , also the company is in england so i am working from home , do contracts work abroad ?! :D

[artist_cg]

ahh college , forgot

[artist_cg]

btw i asked him about the contract , he said they are writing it , so hopefully i won't be screwed , now time to ask him about a percent of the work or something

[artist_cg]

just wanted to say thanks guys for helping me , i really appreciate it :)

[cookepuss]

Regardless of the money you stand to make, big or small, I suggest you get a contract lawyer to look over the document before you sign it. (Contract lawyer specifically. A general practitioner or some other specialist may overlook the finer points or simply be unable to handle them.)

Contract law within the same country is tricky enough and with countless regional subtleties. International contracts... I'd imagine that it gets far, far trickier.

You need to know how valid all of the terms are and what happens in the worst case scenario - if the sh** hits the fan.

[Mrpearlzildjian]

A contract is a must in these days. Verbal agreements just don't cut it like they used to. People have no values in these times, so you should definitely bring ink and paper into it if you want to be compensated properly while retaining rights to your work.

[artist_cg]

hey guys , wow thats alot of talk since the last time i visited , i really appreciate the advice ,
ok now he asked me to deliver him one low poly car , which i already did , to test it on the game engine , this is the first car , i also modeled another one for him , he wanted 2 , that was the deal , i suppose , anyway do u think i should give him the first one to test then if it works , we sign a contract ?! , cause he says he won't sign a contract with me except he tests at least one car and see if supports the quality they expect in there engine , anyway should i just give up the first car , just to see , what he is up to , or forget about the whole thing ?? , again thanks for ur time , i really appreciate it :)

[cookepuss]

cause he says he won't sign a contract with me except he tests at least one car
If he was willing to work with you then that means he's seen your work via either portfolio or demo reel. The fact that he's asking for "a taste" before handing you paperwork just makes him sound like much more of a fraud. There are guys like this on the internet everywhere.

Personally, I wouldn't make any exchange of assets until paperwork is checked out & signed. He's crossing the line by asking for you to start work and hand it to him before contract signing.

He wants to test you? Fine. Test him. Do a couple of multi-angled renders or wireframes. Slap a tasteful, but big enough to be unremovable semi-transparent watermark right across the images. Maybe your name & the date even.

Send THAT to him. Let him know that:

1) You are not in the habit, as a businessman, of handing over assets just like that without the appropriate paperwork.
2) You understand that he needs "further proof" that you're up to the job.
3) In the spirit of providing the proof he needs and starting off on the right foot, you are providing him with these (watermarked) images.

If he's unwilling to accept that.... Thanks, but no thanks. It's not a matter of mistrust. It's a matter of him handling himself as a legitimate businessman.

To me, it sounds as if he's going to:

1) take your 1st model
2) tell you its not what he's looking for
3) say that he can't do business with you
4) take your model and pass it off has his own for profit.

Alternatively, you could ask him to physically sign some limited term contract for this "teaser" model alone. This would acknowledge his receipt of it and your creation of it in black and white. Realistically, such a document doesn't have to be longer than a paragraph or two.

If it were me.... I'd opt for the quick and easy watermark thing. Being multi-angle with wireframes and maybe even timestamps is enough proof that you created it and are up to the task.

Personally, he sounds like a total douche, preying on those young or inexperienced artists looking for a break.

Maybe it's just my New York instincts. Maybe it's my *cough* "advanced age" at work. :p I've just learned never to accept anybody or anything at face value, especially in business.

Proper businessmen will respect the power of the pen. They will respect the power of contracts.

I think the moment that you either send him those pictures or ask for this limited term mini-contract ... He'll head for the hills.

If he's legit, which I don't think he is, he won't be afraid of either the watermarks or this sign-off doc. He'll run though, no doubt faking being offended.

Something about him doesn't seem on the level.

[artist_cg]

thanks for the advice , i thought the same and didn't feel good about him anyway , again thanks for those words , really woke me up :)

[McPandaBurger]

Let me know how this pans out I'm actually interested in what he says :D

[mr_ace]

i'm quite interested to see how all this panns out!
edit:sorry, mcpandaburger posted whilst i was reading! i'm a very slow reader... but the point still stands!

[artist_cg]

McPandaBurger : i think i would forget about the guy and just do some renders for the cars , its a low poly some i might post here :D , anyway he sounds like a really "GOOD" guy so lets just forget about him , and again i wanna say thanks , i said it like thousands of times , but really the advice saved me , i didn't wanna start with a bad memory in the business , cya :D

[artist_cg]

damn everybody is getting interested in the story , ok i think it would end up , by me being ripped or rapped :D , donno , i hope i am not breaking any thread rules :D

[Mestophales]

You have gotten some really good advice here. To me I fell he has had every intention of ripping you off and would be initerested to know what ever comes of it.

There are several ways to freelance, I can only tell you what I do. I will place an ad on Turbosquid or someplace and ask for a portfolio, I have to sort through the ton of responses I get to find someone who fits the bill, I then contact them to ensure they are still available and then I send 2 documents a work for hire agreement and an NDA.

Sometimes I pay 25% upfront, and the rest upon delivery (that I sign off on as complete)

If there is no contract you never continue to communicate as people will badger you.

There are sites like www.rentacoder.com where you can bid on a project, the company or person placing the bid has to put money into escrow - so you know the money is there, once you deliver and they sign off - then rentacoder.com cuts you the check and you both can leave feedback on each other.

For someone just starting out I would do the rentacoder.com, once you get a few contracts under your belt then have an attorney on retainer and have them look over each and every contract.

I would do my best to avoid contracts from different countries, as stated before - there is just too much that can be missed.

Hope it all works out for you

[artist_cg]

thanks for the advice , actually what happened is similar , i saw his post on 3d02 , i think , then i did contact him , then actually he asked me if i am willing to sign NA , but no money :D , so i was like no thank u , i'll do the job without that , anyway it was all wrong from the beginning , so next time , give me a contract baby :D , anyway thanks guys , cya ;)

[artist_cg]

ok to all who wanted to know how this is going to end , i did talk to the director , seems like he knew the guy , anyway when i asked the director , "r we getting paid or not " , simply he said " look my advice for u is to progress ur skills and get REAL clients " , he said he got his own real clients , and seems he is doing this work as a favor or something , anyway the guy was honest , and thats the best part of the story , i appreciate what he said , anyway just thought to tell u the end , btw i got another mail who saw my work on CG society , he wanted me to do a freelance , again after some talk he wasn't willing to pay :D , seems like i have a gift in attracting these guys or something , take care everybody :)