Question for folks who work in the industry?

[Kyoske]

Well I sent this out to a bunch different folks trying to get there opinion. (sadly only a few have given feed back and thoughts) and to all who responded thank you, your input helped ALOT!

Now I have been looking to go back to college and focus on a 3d based job (I just finished my degree in multimedia). I have looked into full sail, digi pen, vancover school of film, gnomon, and waiting on art institute info. And it looks like they all want around 100k for the degree. From the research I have done most 3d artist seem to make 40-60k (this info may be wrong). I'm not looking for a gold mine perfect job I just don't know if its worth the time and massive amount of money? I know I don't have the skills to break into the industry yet, but I'm also hoping that going to one of these colleges can build that base of skills/contacts needed. I really don't have any preference what field I go into, I just enjoy creating environments and characters in 3d for film or games.

A rather large question but I figured it couldn't hurt to see what every one thinks. :thumb:

Kyoske

P.S. If you can recommend a college or program that would be helpful.

[Shadownami92]

Personally I don't think that Art Institute is a good idea unless you're really sure that their 3d stuff is fully accredited and whatnot.

For the others I've heard good things but I think digipen focuses a lot more on the computer science area of videogame development.

The route I'm going to be taking is that I'm going for a master in fine arts. It's a bit more flexible than just a 3D specialty sort of degree.

As for colleges to go to I know that Pasadena Art Centre over here is good for fine arts and stuff. For 3d film stuff Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida is good. I see lots of good demoreels coming from Vancouver school of film.

But I'm not really in the industry yet so there is probably someone with a little more advice or better advice on the subject.

[Kyoske]

ya I was thinking the same thing about the art institute, But I have found a few resumes that went to the Seattle campus. So I figured it wouldn't hurt to have them send me some information.

[usersen]

A few thoughts on schools.
If money is a major concern you might want to consider school in Canada. Vancouver film and Art Institute of Vancouver courses will run you about 40k (in Canadian dollars too). Its not difficult getting a student visa in Canada from the US and may not be far from home either, I know quite a few Americans who have taken courses in Vancouver. If you are considering these specialty schools be sure it is exactly what you want to do as they are not as applicable as broader degrees from traditional colleges\ universities.

If you are looking at Vancouver. Vancouver Film School is focused toward students that already have some knowledge of 3d packages and skills in modeling and whatnot. It is also more focused toward hi res modeling for film and animaton. The Art Institute offers a little broader education with more fundamental programs that will help you if you are completely new to or unfamiliar various with 3D tools. It tends to be focused on game creation.
These are general statements that will vary somewhat depending on which program at either school you will be taking, be it Art, Animation or Design.

Again just some opinions and food for thought, hope it helps.

[LowRez]

It's not a simple Yes No answer....

For me personally it was a Yes, I needed that initial influence and direction to get me into 3d prperly, and Ive never looked back, The majority of University for me was a mix of decent lessons mixed with self learning and groups of students helping one another, chilling in a dorm room learning max with a few friends was probably the best experience I had for moving from traditional medias onto computers.

However I had a strong desire to learn and wasn't ready personally to go out get a job, I wanted the 3 years of Uni to get ready. But other people dont need it, and will not benefit, whilst others are too lazy to benefit, or not good enough but want to learn yet just dont have the ability.

It's a tough call, in america for a start it's alot of money, in the uk its alot cheaper to get a degree, I had about £11k ($15ish) student loan debts at the end of my 3 year degree whilst I hear stroys of $80-100k in america which is alot of money compared.

I'd say you should see if you can do some 3d in your own time using tutorials to start with, see if you think your learning fast enough and go from there, you could always do a shorter 3d course to give you a foundation rather than a full degree, cause at the end of the day a degree is useful but the portfolio is the king.

[shadowmonkey]

Its a lot of money and you still aint garunteed a job at the end of it.Like LowRez says the Uk is cheaper than the USA.I went back to Uni to finish my Degree about 2 years ago.I feel that these days you can learn all the skills you need online.

http://gnomonology.com/

http:
//www.digitaltutors.com/digital_tutors/index.php (http://www.digitaltutors.com/digital_tutors/index.php)

You have to pay for these two but its a lot cheaper than courses.

http://www.3dtotal.com/

these are good places to learn

Its good to have a bit of paper to say what you got but as again Lowrez has said its your work that counts.

[Kyoske]

The point on not going to school in the U.S. is a big one. VFS (Vancouver film school) their full 3d degree is 50k Canadian and that's a bit over 42k U.S. And from what i have seen and herd VFS is a good place to go. + Pixar I guess is opening a new studio in Vancouver.

I'm waiting to talk to some one from the school but that's looking promising. Still on the fence about going back all together. :brick:

[Beartastic]

I think it all depends on what the school's going to offer you. For me, I got time get started on a portfolio, and get lots of experience (which was mostly outside of uni, but uni helped set goals and taught character work and programming/tech art) but I also got my first placement as part of it.

[Maph]

I think the answer to this is quite deep in the gray zone. Completely depends from person to person I reckon.
As LowRez said, there's no Yes or No answer to this one.

I've heard people say it's a complete waste of time, and others claim the exact opposite.
I never had formal uni training on the matter, and learned everything on myself (mostly during those horrendous unemployment periods), but looking back on it. I really regret I didn't go to college in the field. I did one year of Graphic Design, but then decided I didn't like it one bit and barfed out on it. :)

A lot of the game dev process is quite technical, and that you can learn easily on your own, if you're motivated enough that is.
But the other side of the coin features a good artistic skill, that requires a lot of practice, and what better place to do that, then at school?

If I personally ever had the chance to do full time education again, I wouldn't doubt one bit and go back to school for classical art training. As I personally feel formal art training will help you better in the long run then technical tips and tricks you get taught at school.

But, like I said it depends from person to person. If your heart's truly in to 3D, no matter what choice you make, it will be the correct one. :)

[Kyoske]

good info, I know its not a yes or no question. But the more posts like these help me learn what others in the industry think and feel about it. And since starting this post it has given me many different directions to explore. I'm learning that being in the college environment will hopefully help me focus and build the portfolio. If I'm on my own the motivation comes and goes.

And now finding out that I'm better off going to a school out side of the U.S. makes this choice allot less painful. At this point I'm really thinking about Vancouver film school. I see allot of good work coming out of VFS.

[shadowmonkey]

Kyoske its deffinatly helps Being surrounded by other creative people it how I felt when I went back to University,you say that If you are on your own the motivation comes and goes,yes I also know what that is like as when I went back before I was learning on my own except I had no internet so imagine how frustrating that was,I have been out of work for over 8 months now and I belive my best work to date has been created with my own self motivation and places like this.

My advice if you can do it is go to a place like Vancouver film school but you have to motivate yourself,tutors will help but at the end of the day its you who has to do the hard graft and its you who will be doing it once you get a job,I wish all the best of luck and hope you make some killer art work :)

[plunq]

I went for a more multimedia course for school at Seneca College in Toronto. When I went to school I had never used the computer for making art so it was hugely beneficial for me to get that solid foundation. After 2 years I had the equivalent of an associates degree in Illustration Technical, a lot of friends who ended up getting jobs at most of the local animation studios and I got my first job.

One huge benefit that I am only now recognizing in going to school is that I can now work in the United States under a TN visa because of my college education. It might not be too relevant to your initial question (since you already live in the US) but having any kind of degree will help if you are planning on working in another country. That is something that buying DVD's and online workshops will not give you.

[Kyoske]

hmmm very good point.

[Amethyst]

:) WOW, if you have to spend 100k for a college degree, I would take that money and buy a top notch computer with all extras that a 3d or/and 2d artist needs to learn; buy good tutorials; create a small group of contemporary artists also wanting to learn; join competitions like DWIV (:D ) ; learn anatomy drawings; go to exhibitions etc. etc., actively soaking up art from different sources. Yes, I would spend my money like that, but that's just my idea how to spend 100k:D If your hypothetical group is creating good art you can take on jobs as freelancers....
I feel this industry is constantly moving into new technologies and schools don't always have a budget to follow suit. Schools offer well rounded programs and it's nice to have a degree to show on your curriculum which is important in certain professions such as teaching. Now, if it wasn't so expensive this could be a life experience in many wonderful ways. You have to really think through all alternatives and plan for your final destination workwise. I hope that I gave you some fresh ideas in case money is a big stumbling block in today's fluctuating economy. Good Luck in your endevours and keep us posted and this is a good topic up for discussion.:thumb: :)

[Kyoske]

ya that's about the same place I got to until I found out more about VFS. Its about 42k U.S. for the program which is basically a 3-4 year program fit into 1 year. But this is what you do from 9-5, 5 days a week. 80-85 % placement rate, and the folks running the thing are up to date in the industry. I don't remember the names but he was the lead dude for all the lord of the rings movies with Weta workshops (this guy runs the program). And some major dude from EA comes in once a year to give feed back on final projects.

Not to mention the fact that there is at least a 1 year waiting list to get in this place. And that's based on the assumption that they accept your portfolio. They aren't looking for perfection but they want to see some classic background and understanding of maya and xsi.

So it seems like a well built 3d boot camp. Which I feel I may need. I guess I'm not going to make any decisions yet (only been looking for new colleges for 3 weeks) but it is very much at the top of the list.

[shadowmonkey]

Kyoske not sure but what about studying in the UK?

[carotello]

Kyoske, Amethyst brought up a very good point that I'd like to mention.
I am a concept artist, and I work for an NCsoft studio. I have a BFA from AAU, but there are quite a few people in the studio, in all different teams, who have not had a formal education and who don't have a degree.
Most of my friends are in the industry, and we can all agree on one thing: nobody has EVER been asked for a degree at a job interview.

My personal experience of art school, training to work in video games, is a mixed one. I did not have parental support, so I basically went into debt to finance my own education. I am in incredible debt, and yes, I am able to pay my student loan bill with what I make, but dude, I could own a house right now, I could have a mortgage, or something more valuable than the stupid piece of paper that's sitting at home in a bookshelf collecting dust.
However, there were things I benefited from by being in art school:

-Being in daily contact with artistic, creative minds, which fuels your own artistic drive.

-Getting to know people who I now work with, creating a network of individuals who will become key in your future professional life, as most jobs in the industry seem to be obtained through someone you know.

-It gives you the time to focus on what's important to your knowledge and career, without distractions, and with deadlines, and with a commitment to showing up to class with something to show every week. I know myself, and I know I could never have that kind of motivation on my own.

Would I do it all over again?

I would spend the money in the classes that I needed, but I would skip the degree. Or, I'd find myself a good mentoring program, sans degree, and stick with it. Ultimately, you are the number one person who needs to WANT this, and getting into the industry is going to require a crazy amount of drive, effort, and perseverance. You need to ask yourself where exactly you stand at the moment. Are you absolutely and positively sure you want to go into games. If the answer is yes, then it doesn't matter how you obtain your knowledge, it doesn't matter what school you go to.

I say do some research on the cheaper alternatives, that way when you finally get your first gig, you can enjoy your hard earned cool-job money, instead of having to bleed it away to some stupid loan agency.

Good luck, dude. Whatever you do, if you want this hard enough you'll get it for sure, no matter the avenue you decide to take.

[BigJohn]

I have to jump in here just because the guy mentioned the Art Institute.

In short: Don't do it man... just don't...

I went there, and graduated, and it's just not worth it. Here's why:

The education you get there is sub-par. It's technical training, not education. You'll learn to operate 3dsmax, maya and an endless list of programs (most of which you don't need). You can do this on your own by just entering some small competitions (I mean the minis on this site).

Also about education, like I said, it's training and not education. You will NOT learn any art there. You'll learn to use programs, and you'll have to figure out the art part on your own. As far as the traditional courses go, it's a bit better, but still extremely sub-par.

And this leads me to my third point about traditional-art education. If the only art education you get in those places is their traditional courses, you'd be better off getting a fine-arts degree from a regular university. Their traditional classes are basically life-drawing, which you will do plenty of in any fine-arts degree in a university.

Speaking of universities, and this may be the most important point, the Art Institute is NOT accredited. I found this out the hard way. After I graduated with my bachelor's I wanted to get a masters, and guess what? I couldn't. I literally went everywhere and tried everything, but no university in the US will acknowledge the Art Institute as a legitimate school. None. I have a very good friend of the family who's a Dean in a University and he couldn't help me. Another good friend who's a professor in another University, and I couldn't get them to acknowledge even one single credit from AI. Trust me, their website says they are accredited, but they're not.

Last of all, as you said, it's REAL expensive. I still have tens of thousands of dollars of debt and nothing to show for it. These last two points combined explain my never-ending bitterness with this issue.

So all in all, if you go to something like the Art Institute (and I suspect it's the same thing with all those schools that aren't state-universities), you get sub-par training, no degree, and a mountain of debt.

Nowadays you can educate yourself through the internet just fine, and even take life-drawing classes in local schools. If you're really hell-bent on going to school, then do yourself a favor and get a Fine Arts degree from a university and figure out all the technical 3D stuff on your own. You'll be MUCH better off in the long run, trust me.

I hope someone will find some of this useful

[Razvan-Sedekiah]

I don't recommend Art Institute either. I have a very talented friend who went to one and she was not treated very well towards the end of her time there. That is all I have to say about that.

I do recommend:
Laguna College of Art and Design : http://www.lagunacollege.edu/
and
Pasadena Art Center: http://www.artcenter.edu/


These are both excellent school IMHO. Both are in california USA. That's all I know about. I'm sure there are more nice schools.

[Kyoske]

I will check those schools out.

On the note of UK colleges I wouldn't even know where to look - any recommendations?

And ya I wont be going to school in the U.S. there is no point to it and I ruled out the art institute.

And when it comes to where I want to go with it. I honestly just love 3d characters and environments. I would be happy working in the game industry or film.

For me college is less about that paper in a frame on the wall, it more about enveloping myself in the work and not having the distractions that I would normally have. That why I'm still leaning toward Vancouver Film School. (VFS) Its all packed into a year and you eat sleep and breath 3d during that time. I fear it because of how intense it sounds but I also feel I may need that kind of tunnel vision to get my self going. If any one has ever been it VFS and knows more about it I would love to hear from you. (o and the earliest VFS would let me in is sep of this year other wise I have to wait till may 2010)

+ I can't get a Job to save my life. I managed many big box companies, office max, lids, EB games when it was still EB. Hell I'm 6'7 290 lbs and I can't get a job working the door at a bar. Only reason I'm not homeless atm is because I'm doing web and marketing stuff just to pay rent but I hate doing that stuff and it takes up all my time. :brick:

Ether way you all rock for the info and I hope this thread will help others who are looking at colleges and trying to break into the industry. :thumb:

[Carasuman]

I have to agree with BigJohn, and I'm not talking about the Art Institute, after all I live in Mexico, what I agree with is that you look for a place in wich they teach with an art background in mind, after all the computer and software is just like a pencil, another tool to work with.

[Kyoske]

bump ^__^

still looking for info on UK colleges, and any on VFS. :thumb:

[DreameR]

~ I recommend my course. I study Game Art in the UK at De Montfort University.

Other respected Game Art courses are; Teeside University, University of Hertfordshire, Staffordshire University.

There's a few others i think, but I strongly suggest you choose a course based on the work of the current STUDENTS. Ignore what the lectures and school website says. Look at the level of work from the current attending students and whether their graduates have a history of getting good jobs

[typhus22]

depends on what u do with ur time at school. if ur just drinking and fucking about then its not really worth it but if u go to school and work at it and compete/collaborate with ur fellow students then its totally worth it.

for me the friends i made helped me get my foot into the industry so i guess u can put networking as a plus to school.

just my 2 cents

[sinz]

Forget women when you go to college you won't regret it there is always time for the chicks they will ruin you! Experiance has taught me this learn from it :).

[Kyoske]

lol no worries. Been with my GF for close to 2 years now. Only thing that sucks is if I end up going back to college I wont see her for the better part of a year. And that bothers me alot. :cry:

[shadowmonkey]

I havnt forgoten about u m8 im looking for good ones for you,,Liverpool have a game art degree up and running with what i hear are links to industries,there is St,martains art in london,the uni I went to has now moved to Cardiff ,Wales,.I think .but they are mainly animation driven,Newcastle have good links to industry also,To study in the UK you have join through UCAS as an international student so that is your first port of call,Look on there web site and go from there,

[skutt]

I think if you are looking into schools make sure you choose one that doesnt just teach 3d. Employers want you to be able to draw, the computer is just a tool to make your art come to life. I would say look into fine art colleges that that have degree paths in game development and Entertainment arts. That way when you begin you will be forced to take fine art classes and drawing classes and gesture and anatomy classes and all that jazz. Believe me it makes a huge difference in the quality of your 3d work. I have one year left at College for Creative studies in Detroit. There game program is rather new but the chair of our dept is awesome and has lots of connections in the industry. Also you will be forced to learn to draw. Unfortunatly it also falls into to the 100k category

[Kyoske]

On a good note I have grown up with a classical art background and have been drawing and painting all my life. My mother is an art teacher as well so I have jumped through all of those hoops. Drawing and painting are one of the few things that really gets me to relax and leave all of a days worries behind.

I'm more then willing to take more classes based on the classical form because I can always get more and learn more. But thankfully its not my focus or major need. And I know my weak points, I have been drilling my self on human form and color for the last few months. Just takes more practice. :thumb:

Thanks for the UK directions I will look into them. ^__^

[Kazik]

Kyoske,

Hey man i'm glad you discovered the info you were hopefully looking for. I too find myself in that same place now, looking at schools and weighing the options of school or self teach.

my problem is i've got limited selection, Ai being on the top of the list, but after this thread.. i'm not so sure it's even an option. I like the idea of being self taught because i can get the education sooner.. if i went to school i would be waiting until 3 years from now. I'm currently working so Sarah (my gf), can go to law school without having to worry about work. When she graduates is when my official education could start.. but it looks like my education has already started to me.. haha.

I was wondering where you were at, and if you've made it into VFS yet. I can't relocate anywhere, I'm in Houston, and the farthest i could go is Austin, but that wouldn't be for a while.

Is there anybody from the Houston or Austin area on here? i know there's alot more game development companies in Austin compared to Houston, sum odd 40+ in Austin to Houston's 2-5ish?

Anyways.. just trying to squeeze a little more info out of this thread. but i think i'm going to just tutorial it up. Aside from a pencil/paper education for drawing, i think i have what it takes to make it without a piece of paper on the wall as you say. But we'll see.

[Cenelder]

Um,
yes college is NECESSARY and NO you dont have to spend anywhere near 100k. My best reccomendation is to take some drawing courses (aka traditional animation) and then move your way into a 1 year program. The reasons why? Because this is an extremely competetive industry. I know absoultely amazing artists that get laid off and cant find work for sometimes months (i myself have been laid off twice already in my 3 years in the industry just due to companies going under from the economy) To be honest, if you are not really well trained, youll be hard pressed to find a job/company willing to take a risk in training you.

Might i suggest Seneca College in Toronto, Ontario, Canada?
http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/ANI.html
2 Years of traditional animation followed by a 3rd year of video game design/animation for tv or movies. Or, if you are already a competent artist, you can skip right into 3rd year game design. Thats the school i went to, and its quite affordable. When i took it it was only CAD$4.5k a year (if i remember correctly) but its possible the tuition has gone up. Either way, its much more affordable than other schools. Anyway, the point is, youll learn most from your peers since thats who you will be around the most.

good luck

[grimdc13]

If you're not good in handling your finances, don't go the top tier colleges. Just because I went to one didn't guarantee placement..I have to do the applying and qurying myself. I wan't prepared to be unemployed so long after school. Nothing's scareier than when defermentsts come to an end and you owe alot. So I would take their advice and go international for a more affordable education. 12k is what I paid for going to UCR for 4 years..Ringling ended up costing me 150,000..that's a mortgage!! Don't forget to look into financial aid domestically and for internationally..Also you may have to pay more if you're not a resident or citizen.

[d1ver]

Obviously it depends.
I didn't have a chance to get any formal education in game art so I had to learn everything by myself.

Even though I spend a year in the unviersity studying International Affairs. And so judging from what I've seen and done unversity ain't of much use If it is of any at all. It all depends on you. If you are motivated enough to sit day and night, eat, sleep and breathe game art then you'll make it anyway. If you constatly need to be pushed forward then you can choose formal education, but it wouldn't guarantee you any skill except for basics, and of course I would guarantee you a job.

I'd say internet and people on the forums contain enough info to make you qualify for a job in the industry in about 4-5 month. Provided you'll totally completly dedicate yourself to it.
It seems cheaper then 100k $ and faster too.=)

So thats it. You give blood sweat for a certain amount of time. And then you change your time for money.

It's a simple formula and you just have to choose which are variables and which are constants there.