OT: Michael Jackson RIP

[cookepuss]

http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/

Looks like somebody wanted to upstage Farrah Fawcett, who also died today. ;)

Not the same Michael I remember as a kid in the 80s, but still kinda sad if you grew up when he was at his prime.

I think that this calls for a Pop/Rock Superstar Mini-Comp.

[LowRez]

Just saw this... absolutly shocking he was only 50!!!

RIP MJ hopefully people will remember you for your songs and charity work rather than the drama that followed you after the hits... :(

[cookepuss]

How long til the dancing zombie jokes roll in? Oh, I'll just get it over with. (That's gonna freak out his kids for years.)

RIP, Mike. Again, may you be remembered for your music and ONLY your music.

[mwgrafx]

Damn! That is too bad. No one saw this comming.

[Alexson]

Ye RIP MJ, say what you will about his looks and all that, but god damn he made some good music.

[Cunipshun]

ITS NOT CONFIRMED the only source they got it from was TMZ and
LA times is saying is saying it......
THATS IT
no one else is confirming YET
all they kno is that he's hospitalized from cardiac arrest and now in coma
YES IM AN MJ FAN :p hope he Beats this coma
(JUST BEAT IT :dude:)
but as a reply to ALL

**I WONT SAY IT JUST YET**

[cookepuss]

Dude. It's confirmed. I've got the TV on here. News reports galore are rolling in. Unless you're holding out hope that he's hanging out in seclusion with Tupac & Elvis.... Yeah. Dead.

Kinda stinks since he was readying a new tour too. 50 is waaaay too young. (Don't think so? Wait til you get there. Get to 30 and you'll see how it's young.)

[MRico]

Yeah...man, you know something I never realized when I was younger? He has such a kick ass voice! Like...man, I'm listening to his stuff right now on MTV...never realized how awesome his voice is...anyways...

He will be missed. :(

[Dysfunctional]

Respect.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5845/music71.gif

Truly a sad day. A bit horrible to say but it would have been better for his image if he had died 10-15 years ago. :(

[Marcus Dublin]

Man I just heard the news and I'm in total shock:cry:! I'm not sure about some of the younger guys here but Michael Jackson was the next best thing to God growing up as a kid in the 80's!

Like Cooke said, I'll remember him for his Talent and just that! I think I'm going to play my Off the wall and thriller albums now.:(

[Cunipshun]

LOL im a little busy but i just looked again and more of a direct source from coroner HES DEAD............
MAN:cry: :cry: :( @ 50
WOW rest in peace man

YES KGB
he's in seclusion let me say hi to him along wit Tupac and Elvis bcuz i kno private island they're staying on :p

[WhiteGuardian]

Pretty shock to heard that news. :(
He is one of my favourite singer. :thumb:
Hope someone continue his Moon Walk Style. :)

[MyPeople]

my girlfriend told me about this today through IM and i truly didn't believe it and wanted to start tearing up at work! i grew up listening to MJ and i still cant believe it.

she also later mentioned that, that insipid bimbo died and i thought nothing of it until someone else mentioned it to me a few minutes later and i said "...huh..."

[Blenderhead]

RIP, Mike. Again, may you be remembered for your music and ONLY your music.

Well said Puss. R.I.P Mike. :(

[shadowmonkey]

just found out now from this post i thought it was a hoax omg im in shock never saw this one coming

[DreameR]

You're an insensitive prick Cookepuss

[cookepuss]

Yeah. Don't you just love me? ;)

EDIT>> If you're talking about the zombie joke.... Hey, I've got a dark side sense of humor. What can I say?

True Stories:

1) I was 6 years old. My mother was walking me to school. I was an old lady get hit by a car. Literally, the woman went flying in the air about 10-12 feet. I started laughing. My mom asked why. Because she was hurt? No. Because, impact and all, her glasses stayed on through out her "flight". Sick humor. I know.
2) I was 10 years old. My sister's on her way to school. She gets hit by a car and hospitalized. My mom's upset. I say, "Well, look at the bright side. At least she wasn't hit by a truck." (She's okay, btw. If, by okay, I mean that she's an obnoxious jerk.)
3) I was 23 years old. I'm in a shopping center. I'm leaving Eddie Bauer. I fling the door shut behind me. I accidentally nail a 5 year old in the face, knocking him flat on his ass. There were practically cartoon birds & stars above his head. My immediate reaction? "Oh! That's gotta hurt!" Yeah. Instead of apologizing I looked like a douche. My younger brother and his girlfriend smacked me upside my head because... well... my big mouth and smart-ass nature tend to get the best of me.

I'm not trying to be insensitive. This is just how I deal with these things. I usually go to humor first. Trust me. It gets me into so much trouble. You wouldn't be the first person to tell me to shut up. :p

[Jono-GHOSTWORKS]

When we got the news, my girlfriend busted out her Off The Wall on Vinyl!!!

Then we youtubed a bunch of videos. That lean in the smooth criminal video.. damn. So amazing.

[seven]

when my wife told me yesterday billy Jean came on my playlist... weird coincidence since my playlist is ALWAYS on random.

RIP MJ

[cookepuss]

When we got the news, my girlfriend busted out her Off The Wall on Vinyl!!!

Then we youtubed a bunch of videos. That lean in the smooth criminal video.. damn. So amazing.

I always used to freak out over that too, wondering how he could stay up given his shift in center of gravity. Not so amazing when you know that it's a technical trick and not actually MJ's dance prowess. Even his stage performance of the lean involves special equipment. It still looks cool, but once you know the "magic"... not as much. :)

[cookepuss]

Talk about coincidence. Gizmodo just posted an article about the lean:

http://gizmodo.com/5302756/the-secret-of-michael-jacksons-smooth-criminal-forward-leaning-move

[shadowmonkey]

On the news this morning I did have a bit of a sick moment when the broadcaster said that Michael Jackson had touched many people,I nearly spat my tea over myself.

[cookepuss]

Yeah. Last night's "Dateline" on NBC started off innocently enough, but ended up looking like one of their "To Catch a Predator" segments. :p Far more tacky than my zombie joke.

[zeke3d]

I saw the same sort of stuff to cooke, its like even after he has passed, his life is still an enigma, creepy, sad, amazing. one of the clips "they morphed his post plastic surgery face into that of his father’s". I wasn’t a fan of his music, but without a doubt he forever changed it, so many stars now follow the man’s blue print for pop success. In closing, I don’t think the man died young, not if you judge someone by what they did at least.

[shadowmonkey]

yup hes been dead how long and the jokes have started,got one early on from my bro its a Football one,

Q..whats the diff between Michael Jackson and Alex Ferguson (Manchester United manager)?

A.. Ferguson will be playing Giggs this year


All in all though he was a talented man

A Star that burns twice as bright will only last half as long

[ReplicA]

I heard the news yesterday, and instantly thought, it's about freakin time!

Yeah, I grew up in the 80's, and remember VERY well the radio shack in the mall right across from the gold mine (arcade), that played the making of thriller on a loop for weeks, and loved that shit. Massive fan of the song Thriller, and some others as well. But that doesn't mean I'm supposed to be all sad and mopey cause he's dead. Nothing lost as far as I'm concerned. I got over the fandom to his music a long time ago. And just cause he made some decent (for the time anyway) music 25 years ago, we're all supposed to forget about the kiddy diddling, and be all waaaaaahhh about his death? Nah, think I'll raise a toast to mortality instead.

[cookepuss]

The way I see it, there are 2 images he left behind. One is of an amazing career of music. The other is of pure, unadulterated infamy and recklessness. I'd rather celebrate the former.

To me, in practical terms, MJ "died" when with his last great album, 1991's "Dangerous."

As for MJ the person, I couldn't have cared less. Loved his music, but the man was a freak. Something like 50 plastic surgeries, a fixation on kids, an apparently asexual lifestyle, chimps, llamas, his own mini-theme park.... This guy was NOT in touch with reality. I'm sure that his family is sad, but they've clearly got blinders on because they only want to see the best in him.

However, I can separate the man from the legacy.

It's the OJ Simpson Syndrome. You can hate the man for being a psychotic, homicidal killer and for pretty much orphaning his kids. However, you've got to respect that he played a hell of a game of ball. If you're a wrestling fan, you can apply the same thing to somebody like Chris Benoit - an amazingly talented athlete/entertainer who went apesh** and killed his wife & kid.

To be honest, my first thoughts after MJ died were:

"Holy sh**! This can't be real. He's gotta be faking his death just to dodge fame."

That quickly shifted to:

"Ain't karma a bitch?"

I've got to agree with you that MJ was a despicable, creepy person. Still, he was an amazing musician who, sadly, failed to move innovate in a country that was quickly becoming obsessed with grunge/alt & rap.

I don't get mopey over death. Not in the least. I'm not cold or anything. I just think that all of that sadness & crying does nothing for the deceased. Frankly, they're dead and can't appreciate it. I think that we mostly cry & get sad over the things we lost. Death's an inexorable part of life. I'm not gonna mope over a truism.

I'm not gonna get mopey over MJ the person. He doesn't deserve it. MJ's career.... I mourned that beast 18 years ago.

[Amethyst]

Michael you gave the world some great music and new dancing moves and that is what I will remember, so RIP.:think:

[Mrpearlzildjian]

Well I think it's important to understand MJ didn't have a childhood in the least bit. From a very young age, he was shopped around by his asshole father to make money for himself, and not given time to cope with lifes natural experiences. He was just a kid at heart, and trying to get back his childhood, nothing wrong with that. And since no one can "prove" he did anything with those kids, it's up to your own thoughts and theories. I personally think as "creepy" as he looked, he was just a public high profile figure for the press to pick on, and it beat his soul to death. It's sad he died, but whether you liked his music or not, he changed the World of music in tons of ways. Rest in Peace MJ, and just remember, one word...

Thriller.

[cookepuss]

Well I think it's important to understand MJ didn't have a childhood in the least bit.
This is the world's tiniest violin and it's playing just for MJ's lost childhood.

http://www.andrerieutranslations.com/images/violin123.jpg

Y'know, just because everybody else has led such a charmed life. Trust me, his wonder years could have been much, much worse.

From a very young age, he was shopped around by his asshole father to make money for himself
To an extent his father was trying desperately to live vicariously through his children, as he himself was a failed performer. That WAS pretty douchey. However, in all fairness, Joe's pimping of the family was to get them ALL out of a crappy lifestyle. He went with what he knew and didn't resort to mugging or holding up liquor stores.

not given time to cope with lifes natural experiences
Yeah, but it's a big ole Pandora's Box. Once he let the kids perform, it was like a runaway train. The music, TV, and film industries typically bleed talent dry, especially children. The fact that both the Jackson 5 and Michael himself broke various color barriers made them that much more of a commodity. I sincerely doubt that even he, as their father, could have stopped the exploitation if he even wanted. Nowadays, a kid in their place might ask for emancipation. Sadly, that was not the case in the 60s/70s.

He was just a kid at heart, and trying to get back his childhood, nothing wrong with that.
OMG!!! Mrpearl, I like you. I really do. You're good people. So, I hope you'll understand that, even though I respect you, that was the dumbest remark I've ever heard. Truly.

If life is but a stage and we are all performers, there is no dress rehearsal. Life only goes in one direction. Lots of us have had lousy childhoods or none at all. Do we lament what we lost? Sure. Can we recapture that magic? Never. Everything in our past makes us who we are today. We're evolutionary beings.

It's impossible for me to believe that he was trying to get back his childhood. For one, it's impossible. For another, it's just a convenient excuse for him to use and say that he didn't know better. Such a refusal to enter the world of adults WITH other adults is a large component of what therapists would call a "Peter Pan Complex." Michael couldn't deal with having fame thrust on him at an early age and has been in a constant state of denial (of maturation) for years.

There IS something wrong with that. That's why many people enter therapy. The "I'm just a child at heart" defense falls squarely in line with "I thought she was 18" one. The man knew better. He knew what adults were supposed to act like and shunned it. That's abnormal behavior.

You can retain your youthful zest for life without resorting to a nutter butter. Would I like a "do over" for my childhood? Parts. Sure. Would that excuse me of luring kids in with my theme park, plying them with booze, and dumping them into bed? NO WAY. You can keep your inner child without "dating" one. (As crude as that may sound.)

And since no one can "prove" he did anything with those kids, it's up to your own thoughts and theories.
In the original molestation case, he settled and bought the kid's silence. That's an undisputed fact. The kid and his family agreed to shut up & go away. In turn, Michael would pay them $22mil and not admit any guilt.

I don't know what you call it in Wichita, but in NY we call that "hush money."

If you're innocent, you don't pay your accuser $22mil. That's a tactic that I'd expect of the tobacco industry. They won't admit that their product caused your cancer, but - push comes to shove - they'll settle with you out of court. Oh, and yeah, smoking causes cancer. Draw your MJ conclusions from that.

MJ got caught with his pants down, no pun intended. In all likelihood, he knew that the graphic testimony would put him away. He paid the family off.

The sad fact is, he was quite ill. To publicly admit that he likes to share beds with kids, well after this 1993 incident only showed that he was obsessively compulsive in his cycle of behavior and quite likely wanted to be caught. The ill fated 2005 case against him, and the subsequent evidence/revelations about his lifestyle, only furthered this notion.

Hush money aside, just look at his life and little world. Don't tell me that he was trying to reclaim his childhood. Neverland Ranch, with its on grounds zoo and theme park, was like a kid trap. He might as well have had a trail of candy leading to a cardboard box held up by a stick.

I'd much rather remember him for his career, BUT being in denial of the man's overt dark side is tantamount to ignoring an 800lb gorilla at your breakfast table. Try as you might, deny as you might, the stinky truth isn't going away.

The court found him not guilty in the 2nd case, which isn't the same as a declaration of innocence BTW. It's just a sign that the prosecution failed to build an airtight case. In the 1993 case.... The man was guilty as sin. $22mil dollars. He might as well have worn a t-shirt with a picture of a speedo clad Emmanuel Lewis. He was a bear caught in a trap and he gnawed his leg off before the hunters closed in.

Again, the "I'm just a child at heart" and "I would never hurt a child" defenses falls squarely in line with "I thought she was 18" one.

EDIT>>> BTW, does anybody REALLY believe that a "not guilty" verdict for OJ Simpson meant that he didn't murder Nicole & Ron? Courts sometimes make mistakes. As somebody who comes from a family of cops & military types, I can tell you that "the system" isn't infallible. It makes mistakes every day. Whether MJ was innocent of the 2nd case or not is a bit less important to his silent affirmation in the 1st. He bought his freedom and circumvented the legal process.

:uhh: :uhh: SIGH!!! :uhh: :uhh:

I know I went off on a rant at "the memorial service", but I've always found both the "I'm just a kid at heart" and "no proof" stuff as glaringly naive. I apologize to those of you who still believe in his everlasting purity, but that stuff just never sat well with me.

I personally think as "creepy" as he looked
Y'know. Some people suggest that he was starting to look like the father he resented and that resulted in what is thought to have been 50+ plastic surgeries.

However, I think that he had a legitimate mental problem in this regard that extended far beyond being a perfectionist or obsessive compulsive. It was very likely an addiction, imho. Some people become addicted to plastic surgery and will always find some imperfection to justify this level of self-mutilation.

(Was MJ punishing himself or trying to change himself on the outside so much that it wouldn't reflect a growing darkness within? Hmmm.... Just food for thought.)

In part, it's a problem with perception of self, as the person doesn't necessarily like what they see in the mirror. In addition to that, there's a certain "high" to be obtained from the attention of doctors and such. This isn't too uncommon of a disorder actually. I submit to you Jocelyn, "The Bride of Wildenstein" in her before and after pics.

http://www.supanet.com/media/00/18/04/jocelyn_wildenstein.jpg

She says that she wants to look like a cat, but honestly... She looks like Rocky Dennis:

http://www.sandraohisugly.com/quiz/7.jpg

Plastic surgery can be an addiction. Just like coke, pain killers, food, or booze.

Most professionals agree that Mike had 50+ surgeries. 50+. Most people stop with a nose job or maybe a tummy tuck and some botox. 50+. If that's not addiction than nothing is. Just imagine the recovery time for each.

[3D Skillet]

He went with what he knew and didn't resort to mugging or holding up liquor stores..


I'm sorry but that's some pretty racists shit dude

[l33t]

Cookepuss that shit you just said is racist.

You don't mean shit to me anymore.

[LowRez]

how is that racist? can poor white people not rob liquor stores too? I think Im more offended by the "Politically correct" replys to cookepuss's post that aim to make it look bad when it is actualy pretty correct on the whole. MJ was a great performer and for that he will be a legend with most, but he's also a complete and utter nutter when it came to his "private life" and to use the excuse of "he doesnt know better" or "he's just innocently staying a child" is wrong, in England that would get you sectioned by the mental health act. His money was the only thing stopping that.

I dont want to jump in on the whole argument properly just after he's died, I think he's a legend as a performer but people defending his private life need to take off the rose tinted glasses.

[Pavel Petrenko]

RIP - Michael!
Thanks for your music!

[gaganjain]

MJ ! U died because God needs a singer!
Please respect MJ`s talent, no matter wht U think of him as a person. ths is abt his music.

[cookepuss]

I'm sorry but that's some pretty racists shit dude
Um.... Dude, this is New York. Just turn on the news. You've got people of all races and creeds begging, mugging, robbing liquor stores just to feed their families. There was this one story just 3 weeks ago about this guy whose family was starving. He tried to hold up a liquor store at gunpoint. He literally got on his knees and broke down crying in front of the store owner, who gave him something like $40 and a loaf of bread before sending him on his way.

In harsh times, people will do WHATEVER it takes to feed their families. That often includes resorting to crime or lowering themselves to such acts as begging.

Oh yeah.... FOR THE RECORD...... I may be a lilly white toned man of Puerto Rican descent, BUT....

My grandmother, uncle, aunt, & a couple of my nephews are actually black. Not dark. Black. One of my cousins, we joke, looks exactly like Kanye West. (Seriously, dude. It's eerie.)

ON TOP OF THAT..... My sister-inlaw is Filipino and her mother is Chinese. My brother in law is 100% southern redneck.

ON TOP OF THAAAAAT..... I've dated women who are white, black, Cambodian, Indian (straight from India), China (actually from China), Greek, and so forth. I'm an equal opportunity letch. :p

ON TOP OF THAAAAAAAAAAT...... My family has experienced the cold truth of racism 1st hand.
- When he was a kid, my brother used to get picked on and beaten up because he was just a little dark. They used to call him "Pedro" when his name's Joe. I had to kick a lot of butts to defend him.
- When I was a kid, they used to deny my parents entry to certain hotels because my mom, who's pale white, would dare "shack up with a black man". Mind you, my father is olive skinned and not black, but people can be so intolerant. They actually used to make my dad use the bathrooms and fountains for "colored people" before I was born.

And so on and so forth.

So, before you go screaming racism, get your facts straight.

1) People do things that they'd never thought they'd do in desperate times. I was actually APPLAUDING Joe Jackson for trying to support his family in an honest way. If he had fallen on hard times, especially in the early 1960s, his options might have been limited. A lesser man might have turned to crime, REGARDLESS OF RACE. Joe Jackson, as opportunistic as he was, went with what he knew, which was music. He saved his family from a life of hardship by working with his strengths.

To insinuate that such a remark is racist.... C'mon. Get your heads out of the sand. REGARDLESS OF RACE, the world is a tough place, Even more so if you're a ethnic minority or person of color. Sometimes, people can get honest, hard work even in tough times. Sometimes they can't. When they can't, their options are more limited.

If you had to steal to feed your family and there were nor viable alternatives, or you truly felt as if there were none, WOULD YOU LET YOUR FAMILY STARVE?

No. You'd probably go to the ends of the world to protect the ones you love.

That's racist?

Again, I implore you to turn on the TV. Watch the news. People are robbing and mugging EVERY DAY just to feed their families. We're bordering on 10% unemployment. That's a fact. The economy can't support the weight of every hungry or homeless person.

In desperate times or in bad situations, people CAN resort to mugging or robbing liquor stores. Not everybody is like that, I'll grant you. However, some people see no other alternatives. Again, you see this on the news every day and it is actually quite sad. It doesn't matter what your skin color is either. It's happening all of the time and to a whole spectrum of people.

AGAIN.... Before you condemn me, think.

1) The comment itself is not racist. Not even the phrasing. People do desperate things in desperate times. FACT. The race doesn't matter. Would you like me to cite some more personal examples?

2) My own family album looks like a meeting of the United Nations, covering everything from black to white to asian and everything in-between. For me to be racist, that would mean I would be self-loathing and hate even the blacks or asians in my own family. I don't. I love them.

It's not an issue of "Oh, some of my best friends are black." DUDE!!!! People in my own family are black!!! Sorry, but I'm not joining the KKK any time soon, nor would I want to.

I believe in racial tolerance and equality. The LAST thing I see when I look at a person is their skin color. I judge people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin. I'm a highly intelligent and well educated individual whose mother brought him up well enough to know that color doesn't mean crap. People are judged by their deeds.

3D Skillet & l33t..... I'm disappointed that you'd automatically think the worst of me. I really am. I volunteer my time daily to this site and for what? For people to assume that I'm some sort of Neo Nazi fascist? Seriously. I don't need this abuse. I can get that sh** elsewhere. Maybe that's where I should just go. ELSEWHERE.

It's sickening to me that the first place you people jump is to racism.

Get that stick out of you collective butts. Seriously.

~~Rob~~

Oh, yeah.... THANKS A WHOLE F***ING LOT FOR INSULTING ME ON MY BIRTHDAY. Maybe you guys wanna dig up my grandmother's bones and piss on them too.



EDIT>>>> BTW, Thank you for jumping to my defense while I slept, LowRez. I think that you've been around me for enough years to know that I am NOT like that. The exact opposite actually. Again, thanks.

[cookepuss]

One last thing before I go off and try to enjoy my birthday.

If you're upset about the "Joe's pimping of the family" remark....

The implication was not that he was some stereotypical cartoon pimp :), rather that he essentially sold off his children's childhood to the highest bidder. It was figurative "pimping" not literal. :)


I said my piece about "the other side" of MJ and that's all I'll say about that again. Too soon? Maybe. Still notable though.

ANYWAY.... This thread isn't about me.


Back to the topic at hand. I refer you to two of my favorite later MJ music videos.

REMEMBER THE TIME.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDxsM5jLNxM&feature=fvst
SCREAM.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNl2Pm9-7Vk

[Amethyst]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! :mugs:

You know I love you and your comments. You are honest in your opinions and by doing that open for critique. I am usually quite sensitive to racial epithets, but didn't react to anything you wrote. As you mentioned, desperate people do desperate things to feed their families. That happens all over the world regardless of race. Having said this I think 3D Skillet, whose art I admire a lot, and I33t owe you an apology for jumping to a wrong conclusion. Rob, you are very important to this forum and I would hate to see you leaving just because of two members' hasty comments.

I hope you will have a wonderful day with your family and lots of gifts!

[3D Skillet]

Rule # 2 two for me , don't get involved in threads after a night of drinking with friends :lucky:


I don't think any different of you I just typed the first thing that popped in my head. No apology necessary

I would also say in your defense that media portrays the poor black man as doing vicious acts, in order to survive.

All I was thinking was, you could have said something like, " he didn't have to work three jobs in order to feed his family."

I have had three good years doing 3d as a living, but most of my life as an artist I have been working as a carpenter, salvage worker, demo guy, you name it. I've seen all classes and races working there asses off to make an honest living. Then stay up until three in the morning to work on there dream.
My occupation says 3d artist, but in all honesty , lately I have been scraping paint off the side of my friends house. Because that is what people do in order to survive.

[3D Skillet]

Back on track

Happy birthday Cookepuss , have one for me b/c I'm done for a little while :lol:

thanks for the kind words Amethyst, it's people like you that keep me motivated

RIP Michael Jackson, loved your music

[seven]

Indian (straight from India)

I'm jealous. I've never had the opportunity. I've a little crush on Indians :lucky: though my wife who is Mexican has a lot of features that could put her in the same boat with an Indian. :thumb:

btw, happy birthday :) Had no idea your birthday was in June as well.

[shadowmonkey]

yup happy birthday also

[dwinbotp]

Happy Birthday Cookepuss!!! I don't usually delve into these discussions but I enjoy how eloquent you come off in your opinions and serious doses of advice to everyone here needing them:) More power to you man!!!

RIP Michael! Love your music! Show Elvis the Moonwalk and The King will probably let you use his blue suede shoes :)

[3D Skillet]

Cookepuss, I feel really bad for spitting out my opinions without delving into the deeper philosophy of the points you where tiring to make. I hope I didn't cause any distress or credibility issues for you. You're a good guy, and you do a lot for this forum , I thank you for that.

Please forgive me for my high horse moment .


I sent this to your private mail box, but I felt like i needed to put it here as well

[Juju]

Wow, way to deviate from the original intent of this thread...