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Thread: Balancing Critiques with Praise ...
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  1. Parus A. is offline
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    Location: Ontario
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    Balancing Critiques with Praise ...

    Voted! It was hard to pick only 5...I wish I could have voted for 10. Sorry for not finishing myself - I had some serious computer issues in late November (e.g. booting issues and some bad RAM) and along with the whole controversy that occurred my motivation level for this event basically fell to zero but I'll learn from any mistakes I made and hopefully see you all in the main event.

    Some observations:

    As Walrus said, some of the people who submitted didn't seem to share their progress - and because of that reason they didn't get my vote either. I think part of the fun in a contest like this (at least for me) is seeing the various stages of peoples work culminate into a final, finished piece. Also, entries where I couldn't easily tell the class of the 2 main characters also didn't get my vote. Considering this contest was mostly about character design - I think if you have to put a label beside your character to tell people what class it is then you probably made some bad design decisions. I also saw some that seem to have more than 2 main characters which made voting for it tough, especially if it was an otherwise well-executed piece. I'm sure the final judging will be taking these things into account so I feel there is no point in voting for pieces that violate these rules if we want any chance of seeing a GA piece in the top 10-20. Let's face it folks...the competition is tough!

    Another general observation (which might get me into trouble but oh well) - many people are too nice around here, too afraid to offend (and I'm guilty of this as well). I think if one thing is true of everyone here its that we all want to improve - and that is not going to happen if everyone around you tells you your work is fantastic when it has some serious problems. I know for myself when the main competition starts, I don't want people to hold back, especially in the early, most important stages - I want people to critique the shit of of my work. I want people to slam it for being unoriginal, sloppy, having poor anatomy, bad choice of colours, poor value, poor composition (I think ELR did mention that to me so thanks for that), etc. Sometimes you spend so long looking at your piece and you think its coming along great but it takes a fresh view from someone else to point out the most obvious things. Maybe in the main competition where we each have our own thread people can state outright what level of critiques they are comfortable with. That might make it easier for others to rip into them without feeling mean or guilty.

    Anyways, I look forward to your tutorial marat-ars - if you are feeling extra generous you could always include a brush pack with your favourite PS brushes? I recently made the switch from using Corel Painter for 4 years to PS and I'm having a hell of a time finding/making good brushes that I like.
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  2. MatchboxPhoenix is offline
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    Location: London
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    Damn right its difficult to pick, well done GA. I got pretty much the same reasons as Parus A. for not finishing except my computer was fine just got really busy and stopped likeing my piece :| looking forward to the main, does anyone know when it actually starts or will googling it tell me

    I noticed that too theres a few pieces by artists that didn't even stick their heads in to say hi (or maybe i missed that page)...

    And I agree with the harshness and stuff, my composition sucked lol or at least some of the anatomy but I suppose it was brought up on so thanks XD lessons learned!
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  3. miycko is offline
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    Location: Lusaka
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    0just voted
    their some truly great entries from GA
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  4. Mukhtar is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by marat-ars View Post
    Okay guys, for some requests, I will write a small tutorial, how i created my concepts and what tools and brushes to use. Give me some time. Thank you all!
    Walrus, youre right about some artists on here that have not posted their WIP, but I'm sure they will automatically not be voted for by GA users as they would have followed their favourites from 1 day on this thread. It's a shame they didnt join in the fun really.

    Marat, that will be extremely helpful! it's been educational and inspiring just looking at your images so far! I look forward to this tutorial. Also, would you think about making a video tutorial in future? Like a speed painting video only better ;P I have done 2 videos in the past but very simple concepts. Would be very cool.
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  5. ELR
    ELR is offline
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    I have to say that I really think that the nice fellow has a good point here (:


    Quote Originally Posted by Parus A. View Post
    Voted! It was hard to pick only 5...I wish I could have voted for 10. Sorry for not finishing myself - I had some serious computer issues in late November (e.g. booting issues and some bad RAM) and along with the whole controversy that occurred my motivation level for this event basically fell to zero but I'll learn from any mistakes I made and hopefully see you all in the main event.

    Some observations:

    As Walrus said, some of the people who submitted didn't seem to share their progress - and because of that reason they didn't get my vote either. I think part of the fun in a contest like this (at least for me) is seeing the various stages of peoples work culminate into a final, finished piece. Also, entries where I couldn't easily tell the class of the 2 main characters also didn't get my vote. Considering this contest was mostly about character design - I think if you have to put a label beside your character to tell people what class it is then you probably made some bad design decisions. I also saw some that seem to have more than 2 main characters which made voting for it tough, especially if it was an otherwise well-executed piece. I'm sure the final judging will be taking these things into account so I feel there is no point in voting for pieces that violate these rules if we want any chance of seeing a GA piece in the top 10-20. Let's face it folks...the competition is tough!

    Another general observation (which might get me into trouble but oh well) - many people are too nice around here, too afraid to offend (and I'm guilty of this as well). I think if one thing is true of everyone here its that we all want to improve - and that is not going to happen if everyone around you tells you your work is fantastic when it has some serious problems. I know for myself when the main competition starts, I don't want people to hold back, especially in the early, most important stages - I want people to critique the shit of of my work. I want people to slam it for being unoriginal, sloppy, having poor anatomy, bad choice of colours, poor value, poor composition (I think ELR did mention that to me so thanks for that), etc. Sometimes you spend so long looking at your piece and you think its coming along great but it takes a fresh view from someone else to point out the most obvious things. Maybe in the main competition where we each have our own thread people can state outright what level of critiques they are comfortable with. That might make it easier for others to rip into them without feeling mean or guilty.

    Anyways, I look forward to your tutorial marat-ars - if you are feeling extra generous you could always include a brush pack with your favourite PS brushes? I recently made the switch from using Corel Painter for 4 years to PS and I'm having a hell of a time finding/making good brushes that I like.
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  6. Ranz is offline
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    Location: Hurst
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    Criticism is a hard thing to give and to take to be honest. I know I am guilty of both at times, giving more so then receiving. I don't mind and actually welcome feedback that is helpful and presented in a constructive way, but feedback that sounds like actual criticism is hard to take.

    Giving on the other had is a big stumbling block for me sometimes because I think "why in the hell am I telling this person what is right and what is wrong, it's not like I am perfect either". I might feel more comfortable with it if I was getting paid to do it, if it was my job (aka teacher). As a fellow artist, new to these forums, I don't feel like I have a right to tell any of you what I think...I'm also trying to make some online friendships here too so I feel that may hinder that.

    Anyway, good post and hopefully I can improve on both of those aspects as I stick around and try and get to know some of you.

    Quick question, are we supposed to vote across the board including all forum teams or do we stick with our team?

    Thanks and good luck.
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  7. marat-ars is offline
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    Location: Moscow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parus A. View Post
    Voted! It was hard to pick only 5...I wish I could have voted for 10. Sorry for not finishing myself - I had some serious computer issues in late November (e.g. booting issues and some bad RAM) and along with the whole controversy that occurred my motivation level for this event basically fell to zero but I'll learn from any mistakes I made and hopefully see you all in the main event.

    Some observations:

    As Walrus said, some of the people who submitted didn't seem to share their progress - and because of that reason they didn't get my vote either. I think part of the fun in a contest like this (at least for me) is seeing the various stages of peoples work culminate into a final, finished piece. Also, entries where I couldn't easily tell the class of the 2 main characters also didn't get my vote. Considering this contest was mostly about character design - I think if you have to put a label beside your character to tell people what class it is then you probably made some bad design decisions. I also saw some that seem to have more than 2 main characters which made voting for it tough, especially if it was an otherwise well-executed piece. I'm sure the final judging will be taking these things into account so I feel there is no point in voting for pieces that violate these rules if we want any chance of seeing a GA piece in the top 10-20. Let's face it folks...the competition is tough!

    Another general observation (which might get me into trouble but oh well) - many people are too nice around here, too afraid to offend (and I'm guilty of this as well). I think if one thing is true of everyone here its that we all want to improve - and that is not going to happen if everyone around you tells you your work is fantastic when it has some serious problems. I know for myself when the main competition starts, I don't want people to hold back, especially in the early, most important stages - I want people to critique the shit of of my work. I want people to slam it for being unoriginal, sloppy, having poor anatomy, bad choice of colours, poor value, poor composition (I think ELR did mention that to me so thanks for that), etc. Sometimes you spend so long looking at your piece and you think its coming along great but it takes a fresh view from someone else to point out the most obvious things. Maybe in the main competition where we each have our own thread people can state outright what level of critiques they are comfortable with. That might make it easier for others to rip into them without feeling mean or guilty.

    Agree with u and Walrus. And just my opinion.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    In GA I recently joined here when the contest was held DW4. Prior to participation in the Comicon 2010 I didnt come here. After Comicon and pre-DW I got some opinions about the artists here. It is foolish to judge a man if u didnt know him, I mean his character and attitude to other participants. We can only say at what level painting in the art this man is at the moment. Either a beginner or an amateur or were already fixed in the CG industry professional. But there is one detail which I feel sure all the artists but are silent and dont want it to affect. When joined in such major competitions a lot to learn not only about the work and skills of participants but sometimes and FEEL (and I emphasize this word), how he behaves in WIP forum, and it belongs to other artists. Unfortunately I have to write about it, although I dont want to offend, but rather to direct the better. Each of us has good and bad traits in character(*human character). But the author himself and the society in which it is to help correct and improve some of the disadvantages of self-identity. What I mean.

    I'm pretty communicate at a forum with various young artists and experts in their job. Maybe someone else feels it except me. (If anyone knows it will understand what I mean). Throughout WIP, some participants having a frankly poor skills in art, dont try and dont want to learn from others, and show their attitude or simply ignore the advice. They even sometimes difficult to click on THANKS, they believe that there is no need to further develop skills. Pride does not do that. It's obvious. I hate conceited and very proud people, I think this is a weak quality in man. I really like the responsive and kind people with a sense of humor. And I always encourage such people, it is seen. I see all work in process, and try as something to help councils and myself took the advice from others with ease. I dont see what is shameful in this case, a fresh look the other person really can point out the error and help improve performance. It is not necessary because it is angry. There is always a better artist on a level than you. He just knows a bit more than you. (Myself too mean). Learn from those who have more experience, dont react to it negatively. Otherwise you risk remain the same level. These are the feelings I felt at the last contests. Friends, we are all creative people equally, and we love our job. Each is seeking to increase their skills and receive comments like these: It's awesome, incredible, amazing etc. All because they want? I think yes. So let us begin to respect and accept criticism from more experienced people. Suppress the pride which hinders self-development and will not be angry that someone work looks better than yours. Sorry for the long post. Good luck guys, I truly respect each of you. For me it is not difficult, but for you? Decide for yourself.

    yigit
    Mukhtar
    Parus. A
    Walrus
    Exorcist
    Wreckonning
    David79

    thanks so much!!! Cheers!
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  8. Amethyst is offline
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    Ranz: You are supposed to vote on all forums and it's fun. You see a lot of interesting entries.
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  9. Mukhtar is offline
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    I agree with you guys, Parus and Marat. But criticism is something missed a lot. It's also difficult for beginners to take on constructive criticism, I know because when I first started posting on forums and people feedbacking with harsh crit I always ignored it. I just wanted people to see my paintings and say "wow that's pretty" and if I didnt get the response I wanted I ignored what they said and took it as an offence. Beginners need time to adjust, not all of course, I know a few that are hungry for those constructive criticism! because they want to improve! Hell, I want more constructive criticism! I want harsh feedback that will kick me in the ass to keep going and pushing my concepts further and further. In pre-dom I didnt get such luxury as much, and I do miss my days at university when everyone was pushing to do better. I think we need to lead by example if we want more professionalism going around this forum, by that I mean more artistic feedback than recognition and compliments.
    I want to improve so so much and I'm way behind where I know I can reach! But without help from the community I'm in I wont reach very far.

    And like Marat said, dont be angry because someone is better than you. Use them to your advantage, their paintings alone will teach you things, and motivate you to push further to reach that level and beyond! You just have to suck it up and push!!
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  10. Elcura is offline
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    I like this conversation.

    Maybe it's because it's hard to give good criticism? Maybe some people don't feel like they can, or that they might be wrong about something and don't say anything.

    I think generally, if you feel you can't comment on something technically, comment on it personally/emotionally. How does it make you feel; excited, sad, happy, angry? Why? Is it the colours, is it the way that guy is looking at the other guy?

    I know I'm not an expert on colour composition and blahs, but I can tell when my eyes hurt from looking at something because the colours clash or blur together. You don't have to be an expert to point something like that out.

    People will get enough +1's to their ego during a competition, but I think that's because it's easy to do and very quick. While this is nice, it happens to only a select few, and makes others feel left out and neglected. It could scare someone away or discourage them to not get any feedback, whether it was positive or negative.

    You don't have to give an in-depth, critical analysis of someone's work, just a few key words will suffice. Take a little time to comment on someone's work, whether it's criticism or just kind words of encouragement. Take the time to post! If you join a competition, you join it with everyone else.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote #10

  11. desnew is offline
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    Location: Jakarta
    Posts: 83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukhtar View Post
    And like Marat said, dont be angry because someone is better than you. Use them to your advantage, their paintings alone will teach you things, and motivate you to push further to reach that level and beyond! You just have to suck it up and push!!
    Quoted for truth
    i feel lucky i joined team GA, i'd slap myself in the face if i didn't :lucky:
    i improved alot i think, although still got miles and tons ahead to improve on

    why did i say i am lucky, cause you people give the warmest welcome and alot of attention, crits, and supports even to all new members.
    Walrus, marat-ars, matchbox_phoenix, mukhtar, Ksan and also other people that gave me crits and kind words of encouragement

    i also feel sorry that i cannot return those crits in kind, i have slow internet, and usually to open a whole image i copy the link, open it individually and leave it for a couple minutes to load

    we have a great community going on, and i really hope that this will carry on to the main event, remember there's lots monsters and bad ass mofos out there, it will be a bloody battle after the holidays, prepare yourselves!
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  12. Parus A. is offline
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    Location: Ontario
    Posts: 107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    I like this conversation.

    Maybe it's because it's hard to give good criticism? Maybe some people don't feel like they can, or that they might be wrong about something and don't say anything.

    I think generally, if you feel you can't comment on something technically, comment on it personally/emotionally. How does it make you feel; excited, sad, happy, angry? Why? Is it the colours, is it the way that guy is looking at the other guy?

    I know I'm not an expert on colour composition and blahs, but I can tell when my eyes hurt from looking at something because the colours clash or blur together. You don't have to be an expert to point something like that out.

    People will get enough +1's to their ego during a competition, but I think that's because it's easy to do and very quick. While this is nice, it happens to only a select few, and makes others feel left out and neglected. It could scare someone away or discourage them to not get any feedback, whether it was positive or negative.

    You don't have to give an in-depth, critical analysis of someone's work, just a few key words will suffice. Take a little time to comment on someone's work, whether it's criticism or just kind words of encouragement. Take the time to post! If you join a competition, you join it with everyone else.
    I understand the desire to give (and receive) a few quick words of encouragement but doing so can have potential downsides. You may get a nice pleasurable dopamine rush when someone says your work is 'awesome' (yeah, I get it too sometimes...its nice) but ultimately how helpful is that comment if the person's work in fact has several obvious problems which should be dealt with (or at least brought to the artists attention) before continuing on? There isn't anyone here who is perfect and who is above criticism - and you don't need to be as good or better than the artist you critique in order to have something worthwhile to say. marat-ars kicks my ass but I can still see that he rushed his technomage and could have done better (I also suspected that he also knew this and that it was a result of time trouble - I just wanted to make sure).

    I know with 100 people in here its hard to comment on everything and everyone - I just think when people DO make comments they should try and make them as helpful as possible - feel free to point out what is good but also mention things that can be improved. Try to suggest things that will push that particular artist to their full potential and to the next level. The artist can always ignore your advice if he/she doesn't agree with it - but it is always good to have those differing opinions. I know some people here WERE doing just that, and I feel bad for not doing more of it but I'll try to remedy that in the main event.

    Bottom line, we're all friends here, and as a team if we want any chance in beating those monsters on some of the other boards we need to grow a thick skin and welcome more opinions and negative comments rather than sitting back with a smile thinking our work can't get any better - because it probably can. I know personally, out of the 6-7 people who commented on my work the 5 or 6 positive ones may have made me feel good - but they didn't help me out as much as the 1 or 2 that questioned the direction i was going in and made me think hard about the choices I was making. In my opinion 1 negative comment is worth 1000 positive ones if that negative comment makes you a better artist in some way.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote #12

  13. FredH is offline Administrator
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    Location: Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 4,035

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    After looking at some of the art found in the challenge by other teams, and after hearing comments found on other forums, I have to admit, I am a little worried about GA. As an admin here, it feels like I am missing an important piece in order to push artists to get better here. Like Parus A. said, at the moment, it's much too polite on these boards. The plus side to this is that artists from everywhere and all skill levels feel welcome here, but unfortunately, only in the beginning. They will simply use GA as a stepping stone to go on to more challenging sites like cghub or conceptart.org for 2d, or polycount for 3d. I myself was guilty of this when I first started in 3d. I began with 3dtotal. I thought they were nice, polite, and very friendly. I had a great time learning things there... but then I reached a point where I needed more. In leveling up, more pros and more stronger critiques were needed. So I joined cgchat's challenge.. and after that, cgsociety's challenges. Never polycount. Tried for a bit... but they are such asses!

    I really like how people are friendly and helpful here and I do hope it will go on into the future, but I am hitting my head on the table trying to figure out a way to make our artists excel over here, because, well, frankly, leewiart kicked our butts in 2d and polycount in 3d. Even the bads ones over there, were good, and this suggests that critiques were more harsh, but in the end, very helpful to all artists on their team. They had consistanly good entries all throughout their team.

    I was thinking, I could gather a few pros together and form a council on GA. Members on this council, or group, or whatever it ends up being called (War Generals?), will watch over the comps and offer only serious critiques to artists. Naturally, they will say nice things, but the meat of their comments will be to help artists improve, and offer suggestions for possible changes that an artist might have missed. I remember cgsociety had something like this in the past. They set up a forum that was for harsh critiques. Personally though, even though I love crits and find I am open to them, I stayed away from that forum like I was staying away from death himself asking me to pull his finger. So, right now, I am trying to think of a way to make it so that this council is not seen as scary, but instead, as helpful members who like to help artists. Perhaps:
    - make banners for artists to use in their signatures that have 4 ratings.
    1. Screw being polite. Tell me what is wrong and I will love you!
    2. Crit are welcome, but please be gentle.
    3. Encouragement with soft crits welcome.
    4. I am just practicing a new technique. Much to learn, much to do. Crits not really needed right now.

    Something like this. I am still thinking about it.

    I just want to see more artists here improve. It doesn't feel like GameArtisans is accomplishing what it's suppose to do if it is too nice. There must be a way around this:s
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote #13

  14. Ranz is offline
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    Location: Hurst
    Posts: 39

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    Very good points, but I think it's important to remember that you always have to learn how to take constructive feedback (I hate calling it criticism), but you also have to learn how to give it too.
    So far in my short time here, I haven't ran across anyone that hasn't given opinions or feedback with the best of intentions and tact, but I have seen it before on other boards and it can get ugly.

    Kudos to gameartisan.org
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote #14

  15. AcrobatFly is offline
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    Location: New York
    Posts: 642

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    A good critique has nothing to do with being harsh or polite. It has to do with being balanced and informative. If a critique is not constructive then it's worthless.

    I don't think that people here are too nice. I just think that some people don't know how to give a good critique. You can be honest without being an ass or too much of a softy. Similarly, I think that some people giving critiques simply either don't know what to look for, being newbies themselves, or just don't have the time to do an in-depth analysis.

    The way I see it, I'm not going to give a critique unless I can devote more than a few choice words. No attaboys from me. I'm a firm believer of the so-called "compliment sandwich" critique. IOW:

    BREAD: Opening compliment
    MEAT: Insightful critique
    BREAD: Closing compliment
    Hey, you. I like what you're doing here.
    It could be better if you do x, y, z, and q instead.
    Good start. I'm looking forward to seeing this model progress
    The more that needs to be done to the model, the more "meat" you stick in-between the "bread" of the sandwich.

    Just don't say "good job" or "great work" and leave it at that. Tell me why you like it. Likewise, don't just say "it sucks" or "it doesn't look right" and leave it at that either. Tell me why it sucks and how I can improve it. Better yet, if you can do a paint over, show me how to make it better.

    If you do this, it's almost impossible to offend. You'll leave the person on a more positive note, even though you essentially tore their work down. IMO, this method of handling things is much more diplomatic.

    There will always be somebody who can't take criticism. Sometimes, all they want is their congratulatory cookie. The world is full of people who surround themselves with "yes men" types. The best you can do is leave them with your honest, heartfelt opinion. If they don't want to hear it, leave it be and leave them to their delusions. They'll either get out of the biz or get with the program.

    Most importantly, if you can help out for more than one post, by all means do so. Contribute as much as you can to helping your fellow artisans along. A piece of art doesn't get better after one critique alone. Be the cheerleader, but also be the mentor. Give of yourself as much as you can. You'll certainly appreciate it once it's time for the community to give back to you.

    IMO, I don't think that everybody does so well when faced with drill instructor mentality.
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  16. Mukhtar is offline
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    Location: Wilmslow, UK
    Posts: 563

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredH View Post
    - make banners for artists to use in their signatures that have 4 ratings.
    1. Screw being polite. Tell me what is wrong and I will love you!
    2. Crit are welcome, but please be gentle.
    3. Encouragement with soft crits welcome.
    4. I am just practicing a new technique. Much to learn, much to do. Crits not really needed right now.
    I like that idea. I think it would work well.
    I'd have no.1 really :P I'm done with polite! XD
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote #16

  17. Imajus is offline
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    Location: North Carolina
    Posts: 157

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    One thing I see on GA that kind of bothers me is during challenges the mediocre and less skilled artists seemed to get ignored and 90% of the posts are praising the elite guys. They certainly deserve it, but I think a lot of the time the mediocre and beginner artists deserve more attention. I am a professional level designer / environment guy so I see myself as mediocre since most of the challenges seem to involve characters which is something new to me and at times I felt a little starved for critique.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote #17

  18. Neverheidae is offline
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    Location: Chicago
    Posts: 30

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    I am still a "noobie" on these forums, and definitely place myself as a "beginner artist" in comparison to a lot of the great artists on these forums. And I find myself terrified to even try talking to you guys. I'm shy to begin with, which is why I lurked on here for, well, years. Posting at all in the WIP thread was a pretty big hurdle for me that I did in the hopes of getting some of the scathing critique that I know I need to make the next trudging step forward as an artist.

    So when I posted my wips, I tried (tried being the operative) to offer something nice, and something...that I was unsure about, or would ask myself about, or looked "off" to me about every piece I replied to, cause in the sketchgroups I do in real life, if you don't critique other people, you can't honestly expect to get much in return. I hope I didn't come off as mean or snooty for doing so. D: I just found out about this stupid "thanks" button in this thread, and am having a minor existential crisis that I didn't properly thank anyone now.

    The reason I felt I should respond to this thread, instead of skulking off back to the shadows, is in part because, when I was writing my "note to self; stuff to fix in main competition" blog post, this is mostly what I wrote about, and...well, we're talking about honesty and critique and improvement, here, so...it seems appropriate. In part because the shadows are really boring, and I didn't learn shit there.

    Block Quote;
    I had a really hard time getting any critique or feedback from the forums, which was the most startling thing for me. I had basically assumed that was what the competition was all about for most of us, but it seemed as if most of the critiques were softballs or “looks great man, love it.” which, while life affirming and snuggly, is not what I was there for. Overall, I received pretty resounding silence. Which is pretty much the worst thing I could have hoped for. Even hate is an emotion...but nothing at all? harsh. About midway through the competition, I had a small moment of panic that went something like “oh dear! Is my work so terrible that it is beneath comment!? Have I offended someone in my attempts to offer the same critique I came here for in hopes of garnering reciprocation!? Is my name simply too hard to spell? Do I smell funny!?” with a small dwarf running shrieking, kermit-armed laps inside my skull. A blackjack to the back of his obnoxious head, and the rational acceptance that these were not questions that could be answered got me back to work fairly quickly, but a lot of those questions remain in more grounded and lucid terms. I am generally pretty inactive on the Game Artisans forums out of a deep and abiding shyness; part of why I entered this competition is my lifelong attempt to break out of that shell. Most people probably just didn't respond to my work at all because they don't know me. Perhaps all that is needed to get some feedback is continued participation? Perhaps I DID offend; I did make the gamble of telling that stellar artist his magic looked like a cock. Oops?


    (And here's the pertinent rambling to THIS thread)

    Perhaps it’s just the attitude of the forums. There are many communities, because there are so many different working styles and communication ethics. Maybe Game Artisans just isn’t the right place to be seeking this kind of critique? I might consider CGHub or a different forum, next time. Regardless of my inability to get direct feedback from the other artists of the forums, I did learn quite a bit from a rather unexpected source; the WIP’s themselves...

    and then I trail off, but...yeah. I don't want to discount all the learning I got to do just from those WIPs. Marat, Muhktar, Wreckonning and Walrus especially helped me nail some small things that will change how I do all of my work in the future just by posting those wips. Thanks Guys!
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  19. JakeLV426 is offline
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    Location: Los Angeles
    Posts: 705

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    If you want to be a professional artist....develop a thicker skin. This is a very hard, competitive business. Nobody likes a sensitive whiny child in the workplace. 1000 people
    want the job you want.

    If you're not getting praised...what you made isn't amazing, it may be merely 'good'. Or, quite possibly, 'bad'. Try again. Stop crying like you're a unique little snowflake. If you want to have your ego stroked, show your art to your Mom. There's 'good enough' and then there's 'wow'.

    The fact that forums like this exist and you can get help from pros is a blessing that didn't exist 10 years ago...take what you can. Learn from the crits others recieve. Shut your mouth about how unfair things are and keep your eyes and ears open.

    The industry and the world doesn't owe you a job, or praise, or fame. You have to earn it.
    So get to work, and work until you get the attention you want. There's no conspiracy against you, there's no secret society you can't get into, and there's no shortcut to victory.

    Drop the ego. Get to work.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote #19

  20. walrus is offline
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    Location: Oakland
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    Too many separate thoughts to comment on right now - which is the number one reason i don't always give feedback in the contest itself: You'll note that my comments were pretty thorough early on and waned once we got closer to deadline. But just a few notes that i have time for:

    Fred wrote
    I am trying to think of a way to make it so that this council is not seen as scary, but instead, as helpful members who like to help artists. Perhaps:
    - make banners for artists to use in their signatures that have 4 ratings.
    1. Screw being polite. Tell me what is wrong and I will love you!
    2. Crit are welcome, but please be gentle.
    3. Encouragement with soft crits welcome.
    4. I am just practicing a new technique. Much to learn, much to do. Crits not really needed right now.
    EXCELLENT idea! What i love about this system is that there is no stigma on flagging your entry "soft crits" or "no crits." (There should be an option for No Crits, imho, without being tied to "new techniques or whatever. People don't need to justify why they don't want them: If they don't, they don't!) But it does set up a system where you can feel comfortable giving more serious crits if people are welcome to them.

    You know what would be cool? A threaded comment system, where one's notes somehow get attached to your last post instead of you needing to look back three pages to find comments on your work. It's like how gMail works, unlike, say, Yahoo mail, where opening up an e-amil that people have responded to shows you all the e-mails in that thread, not just the last one sent. So everything gets threaded and grouped together. not like you have the wherewithal to rewrite the entire site forum system, Fred, but it would be really useful to be able to comment directly on someone's entry, not 2 pages alter. And I guess DW itself is more like that because everyone has their own thread.

    But overall, it is hard for me to offer advice on how to make people give more solid feedback because I try to do it all the time. My own stumbling block is seeing work that's so beginner that I could offer 100 different comments, and it's not always tactful or useful to say "learn how to draw!" It's easier to find small things to note, and i do try to do it with the experienced guys as well as the intermediates, as I usually assume someone really experienced and good got that way by being open to feedback!

    I always use the "comment sandwich" method that AcrobatFly mentioned. something else that I always try to do is not tell people what to do: ie. i never say "You should change such and such." I always offer suggestions, like "you should look at this area," or "what if you tried this part in a different way," or "the anatomy feels off in this area, how would it look if both hands were the same size?" or things like that. So much of art is subjectinve... i'm still almost saying the same thing but leaving it more up to the reader, without coming off like a jerky know-it-all saying "that's wrong" or "you must fix that broken area."

    But anyhow, I really do like the earlier points of how we can get people to give more constructive critiques. The issue some of us are getting off onto (me too!) are about how to give more polite crits. Hopefully we can do both!
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote #20

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