Paintings vs Photos (Realism vs Fantasy)

[Hermoor]

Hello I have noticed something in games of today, the graphical style and beauty of them suck. It seems to me in the industry today normal and spec maps overshadow the artistic part of the graphics.

Realism is what is pursued and not beauty. I personally prefer a nicely done watercolour painting over a photo any day. That is why I'm a fan over prerendered backgrounds btw. Anyway i also noticed something very concerning in another thread.

Someone said that he told his students to exagerate the sillhouete of the character they are making and make him more buff and muscluar so he stands out as the hero character. I find this advice horrible and i would like to tell you why.

Basically games re going for realism, normal and spec maps are used to achieve this realism. But these games mix fantasy and relaism in such a way that it ends up looking like some kind high spec realisic pokemon shit. Sorry for my language, hope all words to express opinions are allowed to be used.

Shit was meant to be used against the graphics of the games of today and not towards someone. Anyway, basically this is what people do:

Normal map/Spec maps = Goes for realism
Exaggerated/proportions/anatomy = Fantasy

So most games end up looking like gods of war or Batman Arkham Asylum. Arnold Schwarznegger anatomy isn't standard and certainly not normal for any hero of the last 6 millenia. People just don't look like that.

It would be better if the games would look like:

Normal map/spec map = Realism
Normal proportions and sillhouete = Realism

OR

No normal maps or spec maps maybe filters = Fantasy
Normal proportions and sillhouete = Fantasy

Also another thing, I notice more and more in games that shadows aren't black. Some textures in games just doesn't use black as shadow. If you look at every photo and every painting that is trying to look somewhat realistic shadows always go to black.

Then we have the photo vs handpainting debate, I find the people who take a photo put it on a model and generate a normal and spec map from it and call it superior graphics don't understand what beauty is. What do you find superior graphics?


I don't know about you buy I find the exaggerated sillhouete and proportions of the game model below to be hideous not really because it's exaggerated but because it's trying to make it look realistic by putting normal maps and spec maps on it. I think if you want make exaggerated proportions and sillhouetes on characters you should skip the normal maps and spec maps. It just looks so wrong to me...like some kind of bad taste anime shit.

Hope you understand my point, games of today are going for realism but design their characters as if they were action heroes or mutants from some shitty marvel comic. So it's a nasty mix...games like Final Fantasy IX worked with exxagerated proportions BECAUSE the characters had no normal maps. I find that graphical style to be much more tasteful.

This is partly a response to invizzie14u...anyway as I see it I think the game industry need a revolution. It seems like the game industry is being run by spider man fans and not artists. I know this might be offensive to some, but it's kind of the truth. There are no low contrast artistic realistic/artistic games today. Just super mario high saturated sci fi shooters with everything just so wrong...

Ok let's start debating...or maybe you all agree

[Elmo]

well people that sample real photographs will draw on top of it still or add bunch of stuff
they dont just slap on a texture and call it a day u need to make stuff match and change whateevr to suit whatever u were trying to achieve
i personally dont give a damn how u make it as long as it looks awesome in the end
it doesnt really matter
anyways i can use a real pic put 4 photoshop filters and u will start thinking i hand painted it
i find when ur a student you are more into hey i gotta hand paint this and make all my stuff from scratch but when u get into the reality of a production u just try to find what will give maximum speed and maximum results
that damaskinos character is awesome in my eyes and he doesnt have exagerated proportions their very much normal
" I think if you want make exaggerated proportions and sillhouetes on characters you should skip the normal maps and spec maps. It just looks so wrong to me...like some kind of bad taste anime shit."Not sure I understand this one
ive seen some crazy characters with only diffuse but ive seen some with normals and spec just as crazy and more
u cant make details pop if u dont have those maps
game artists are not the ones that decide in companies of the graphic style
so i take it we cant make real stuff with exagerated things in it..so ill call dali in the after life and tell him his art was all wrong
"Normal map/Spec maps = Goes for realism
Exaggerated/proportions/anatomy = Fantasy" ok got it so shaquille oneal is a fantasy character
so what is your solution? revert to just making diffuse maps
i think u havent seen battlefield 3 videos ..realism is not only in the maps its also in the lighing and the render engine
you probably think this is not good?
http://forums.3dtotal.com/showthread.php?t=68092
http://gameartisans.org/forums/showt...=7693&p=137600

[ArminChaudhry]

i find when ur a student you are more into hey i gotta hand paint this and make all my stuff from scratch but when u get into the reality of a production u just try to find what will give maximum speed and maximum results

indeed :thumb:
btw. Hermoor, everything is a matter of taste, if you dont like a particular style that does not mean it is bad.

[Hermoor]

that damaskinos character is awesome in my eyes and he doesnt have exagerated proportions their very much normal

What? You call that normal, first of all his chest is way too thick compared to his waist, his shoulder pads and armor is way too big for him to walk around in without having severe back problems. Also it seems like he got an enormous croutch area. Basically everything is exaggerated to the extreme. Too much muscles, too much armor too much everything.

Not sure I understand this one
ive seen some crazy characters with only diffuse but ive seen some with normals and spec just as crazy and more
u cant make details pop if u dont have those maps

I mean, exaggerated proportions is unrealistic. Normal maps and spec maps tries to make the character look realistic. The result is that the character looks like a plastic super hero toy. Some kind of super mutant marvel character. I don't like that style, but a lot of games nowdays got that style to them. As if every hero and character has to look like a super hero toy.

game artists are not the ones that decide in companies of the graphic style

Another problem, the game isn't being designede by the artists but by greedy buisnessmen who grew up playing with action man figures.

ok got it so shaquille oneal is a fantasy character
so what is your solution? revert to just making diffuse maps

No he is not a fantasy character, but you are right that is kind of what every damm character is suppose to look like. It's not like shaquille oneal got a normal body. Look at old photos of indians and african bushmen etc to see normal NATURAL muscle anatomy. No but if you want to make charcaters that got exaggerated proportions like a big head or long arms or something. Go for the painted look, like for example. The old Crash bandicoot game, that fox had his shoulders up his ears. Yet it looks natural since the guy who made him wasn't trying to make him look realisitc. Trying to make a exaggerated character look realistic by using normal maps and spec maps is big fail for me. It ends up looking like some kind of super hero toy, and I personally hate that look.

you probably think this is not good?

No I don't like that style, looks like some kind of transformers from some cheesy 80s anime. For 3d I like this style:

You know just a bit lower contrast to everything, not so intense, not so shiny like if everything is made of metal or plastic.

or like this, where the painting in the background blends in perfectly with the character, making it look like you walk around in a painting. Nothing shiny no spec maps not so high contrast.

I can appreciate realistic graphics too with normal maps and spec maps. But then the characters have to look realistic too.

There are too many games looking like this...

[ArminChaudhry]

i totaly understand your point of view mate, but it is only your taste and you cant speak for everyone. Those Games nowadays look like this because alot people like that style and so the companys produce it.

The succes of a company depends on the markets and the audience love that artstyle. So the main essence is you dont have realy a choice if you want to be succesful in the western hemisphere.

Asia is a other marked, there you could be succesfull with this style. "But in america and europe no chance!"

[Hermoor]

Well I think it's this that stands in the way for games to be accepted as an art form. Like music, movies and traditonal art. I wonder when we will have galleries and oscars for games if ever. Personally I think some games like The Dust: Tales of the wired west and Final Fantasy IX have been games that took a step in the right direction. Sadly the ones who made Tales of the wired west sold out their studio and Final Fantasy has gone downhill ever since they replaced the prerendered backgrounds and introduced voices to the characters. Oh well what can one do

[ArminChaudhry]

but what is better make art for a living or art for fame?^^

Nobody can eat fame ^^ and money comes only from what the gamers want.

[Elmo]

games is already excepted as an art form google it
yesthat char almost have normal anatomy most of the things are armor chest piece looks like 2 pieces look tthe inside
in japan they focus more on stuff like hair cuz its a big thing over there
every place has its own thing
artist dont decide its art director and head guys
that pic u gave is cool but looks all flat
you dont need to have realism to use specs and normals and whateevr else map,
look at movies
even cute animation had displacement normals gloss sspec etc
doesnt mean u paint something that its fantasy or realist
the genre has nothing to do with it

[Hermoor]

Well said, today most games are made for 10-16 year olds in mind. I wonder what will happen to games when the first super mario player turns 70. Wonder how games will change in the future to be targeted towards an older audience.

Hopefully we will see games to be divided into styles. Similar to how traditional art has different styles, like romaticism, surrealism, realism etc. And I really hope the spec is being toned down and realism not as popular as romanticism. Hopefully the traditional art style using watercolors and brushes will be merged with the game.

To remove to super realisitc feel they will use filters similar to Okami just a lot better, maybe concentrate on using fixed cameras and moving cameras for cutscenes. And HOPEFULLY games will move outside of america and Japan. Most games today are being made in america and japan maybe britain.

I would love to see some games made by other cultures. Bring forth some folklore and forgotten mythology. Tell stories nobody has ever heard.

Actually I would like to see games change from shooting simulators into storytelling medias similar to books. Making the player have choices is important but not necessary. I think a mix between:

Mass Effect 2
Final Fantasy IX
Dust: Tales of the wired west

would be the best way to make games go. It would be like reading a book, have small choices in how the story unfolds and concentrate more on puzzles and problems instead of leveling up your characters and kill bunch of stuff. The story being the main thing, combine this type of game with static cameras similar to Final Fantasy IX and really old movies like...umm you know old filimg style.

James Bond
The seven samurais
The seventh Seal

There is too much camera movement in games today, there is no depth no sense of atmosphere or calmness. it's like watching Tom Cruise in Mission impossible. OMG WTF, shit...just action action action. Movies have calm moments and action, suspense building up to moments. But in games it's just action action action. There seems to be no directing, Final Fantasy IX doesn't handle this very well either.

Also the thing about Final Fantasy IX is that there aren't a lot of closeups. You always see the characters from a bird perspective and never in close. This is obviously because of the bad texture resoltution and detail. But on current consoles this could be fixed. One would be able to have intense closeups and fixed cameras from different perspectives similar to a dueling scene in cowboy movies.

Anyway I hope games changes seriously, too much crap. Last good game I played was Mass effect 2. But it had it flaws too, too much action >_> In space normal maps and spec maps look good though.

-Rant over-

[Beelzeboss]

I never found normal and spec to be about adding realism I found them more to be about getting extra detail in and pulling out forms with the limited geometry we have to play with. Realism is all created by the art direction textures and lighting the normal maps are just there for the details.

At the end of the day it all comes down to taste and what you like to see from your art style.

Out of curiosity do you like the art style on the movie advent children?

Then we have the photo vs handpainting debate, I find the people who take a photo put it on a model and generate a normal and spec map from it and call it superior graphics don't understand what beauty is. What do you find superior graphics?

Erm I don't know any artist who works like this there is a lot more to creating a good normal map than just processing a texture.

Someone said that he told his students to exagerate the sillhouete of the character they are making and make him more buff and muscluar so he stands out as the hero character. I find this advice horrible and i would like to tell you why.

Not really you want your hero/lead character to stand out above the other characters and if he/she is a hero they must come across that way do you have to do this by adding muscles no but you can give them a strong stance make them a bit taller give them a confidence the other characters around them don't have. Same would go for a villain you don't want the main villain to look like generic henchman No1. bottom line your main characters need to stand out from the rest no reason this needs to go to an extreme but a little exageration goes a long way.

Also another thing, I notice more and more in games that shadows aren't black. Some textures in games just doesn't use black as shadow. If you look at every photo and every painting that is trying to look somewhat realistic shadows always go to black.

The reason textures tend not to use black is because black is the darkest you can go you add lighting onto black to create shadows it will have no effect so the darkness of the shadows will be dictated by the lighting and most cast shadows are not black anyway.

well I think it's this that stands in the way for games to be accepted as an art form. Like music, movies and traditonal art. I wonder when we will have galleries and oscars for games if ever.

Games have already been accepted as an art form and there are already a number of awards for them they are just not made a big deal of like the movie awards

Hopefully we will see games to be divided into styles. Similar to how traditional art has different styles, like romaticism, surrealism, realism etc. And I really hope the spec is being toned down and realism not as popular as romanticism. Hopefully the traditional art style using watercolors and brushes will be merged with the game.

If you look at the vast amount of games out there there are lots of different art styles not everything has a realistic look and if there were not these realistic games people would complain why does everything have to look like a cartoon or a painting there are some spectacular looking games out there and not all of them have a realistic art style.

would be the best way to make games go. It would be like reading a book, have small choices in how the story unfolds and concentrate more on puzzles and problems instead of leveling up your characters and kill bunch of stuff. The story being the main thing, combine this type of game with static cameras similar to Final Fantasy IX and really old movies like...umm you know old filimg style.

They did this with Heavy rain it was all about making choices it was an ok experience but I wouldn't say it was overly fun to play. LA noire is not far off either I am about half way through that and starting to get really bored with it. It needs to be a balance not one or the other.
Also a possible pitfall with having the player direct the story is branching paths if for every choice the player makes the new path would have new choices. They will continually keep branching until you reach a conclusion could you imagine the amount of work involved which is why normally choices in games will be contained to a select few choices and outcomes.

And HOPEFULLY games will move outside of america and Japan. Most games today are being made in america and japan maybe britain.

Not true they are being made all over the big publishers may be based there but there are a lot of devs across Europe, Australia and Canada

There is too much camera movement in games today, there is no depth no sense of atmosphere or calmness. it's like watching Tom Cruise in Mission impossible. OMG WTF, shit...just action action action. Movies have calm moments and action, suspense building up to moments. But in games it's just action action action. There seems to be no directing, Final Fantasy IX doesn't handle this very well either.

I have to disagree again the core of most games may be action but it is not constant look at Bioshock that game is full of atmosphere. Even games like dead space it is more about the suspence. you will usually get a bit of both in a well made game.

Arnold Schwarznegger anatomy isn't standard and certainly not normal for any hero of the last 6 millenia. People just don't look like that.

Erm Arnold did

[Panthus]

There is no point, beyond mental exercise, criticising the state of the art. If you prefer something that you aren't seeing in commercial products, create it. If enough people agree with you it will become commercially successful. If they don't, hopefully you will have still made something you are proud of, but you will either need to change your outlook or look somewhere else for a paycheque. You can't convince anyone that their taste is wrong through argument.

[jocz]

team fortress 2 and darksiders are 2 good examples of stylized normal mapped games

[Daelus]

There's a difference between aesthetics and graphical quality. You can have one and not the other quite easily. Since you made a few references to paintings, lets take that for example. I'm sure we can all agree that there are good and bad paintings, but it isn't the medium or the style itself that defines which one is good or bad. You don't look at an oil painting and say it's better than a water color. It's the artist and the artwork, not the tool.

Same goes for games. There is no conflict between the two. You can make a game that aims for photorealism and cutting edge graphical technology that still has it's own cohesive and distinct visual identity. There is this perceived issue that as we get better graphics, style and visual flair go down. This is a ridiculous and vacuous debate.

[Hermoor]

Well...every graphic style got bad and good examples within it. It's just that, there is something you get by reading a book that one can't at the moment get by playing a game. There is something about watching some old 50-60s movie that one can't get by playing a game.

You know the feeling? The feeling of awe when you watch a wide abadoned landscape. Or when you go deep inside a dark forest surrounded by pine trees and owl nests. You know the smell the colors the general atmosphere.

It's hard describing this with words therefore I'm going to present it with some clips:

1:26 min into this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVuCR...eature=related
You hear how the music together with the images creates a very interesting atmosphere.

Or this intro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFsAE1GlJzY

You notice what creates this atmosphere? it's the calm camera moments together with matching music. A general rule when filming is NEVER to zoom in. It breaks the illusion and one notices it has been filmed. In games zooming happens ALL THE TIME. Since you often walk into the screen...the only games where it doesn't happen that I know of is Final Fantasy IX and basically all games that got prerendered backgrounds. Look what kind of atmosphere is achieved because of the static camera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bevbg...eature=related

The guys voice ruins it, but see how the camera never zooms in. This contributes to the feeling of you watching something happening and isn't a part of it yourself. It's like reading a book but with visual imagery.

When you have a 3rd person camera at the back of the character you are playing you loose all the atmosphere. You aren't watching a story unfold anymore, you are stalking some guy as if you were a bird hunting him. The camera movement also breaks the atmosphere, even in cutscenes in 3d games you loose all the atmosphere because the camera changes all the time.

Movies with great atmospwhere are movies that has as little camera movement that is possible. Some movies that come to mind...

2001: A space oddysey
The good the bad the ugly
Bambi
The Road

All these movies have great atmosphere, with games today and GRAPHICS today this isn't possible or at least very very hard to achieve. There are two reasons for this:

1. Too much action.
2. You are walking into the game. (Like simulator)
3. Graphics are too much like photos or too detailed. (Leaves nothing up to imagination)

Like for example in the Final Fantasy IX game, you don't get to see in a 360 degree view around you. You only got that one view of the area, that way the player has to imagine places in between the scenes. It's much more like a comic book and a bit closer to book feeling.

Also something The dust: tales of the wired west and Final Fantasy IX both have in common is that there is not a lot of action going on. In Final Fantasy IX all action takes place in battle scenes and in the Dust there is just like one 10 min gun fight at the end of the game.

There is not a lot of fighting in the atmospheric movies either. In 2001: A space oddysey there is only words from that creepy robot. In the good the bad and the ugly the duels consists mostly of staring eachother down. Even when they ride around the camera is always static looking down at the riding guy there is never any zooming. The road is all about fear of the dead landscape...almost no action.

It's the same with horror movies, the horror movies that are the scariest are the horror movies in which you see no mutated creature or anything. You just know it's there...

So to sum it up, few problems with games:

-Graphics too contrasted and detailed. (Simulation style)
-360 degree view in most games. (Nothing left to imagine)
-Zooming (Breakes the atmosphere)
-Too much fighting (Breaks the atmosphere)
-Exaggerated proportions and sillhouetes (Makes the characters look like toys)
-Too little detail due to limits on faces (Prerendered backgrounds would sovle it)

[jaroldsng]

specular maps are used to define the specularity/glosiness/shinyness of a surface as directed by the artist. Normal maps are used to add more light scatter/bounce on a polygon surface, giving it the illusion of more defined form on a low polygon/detail object.

and while im at it, diffuse map, with picture texture overlays or hand painted, just serve as color and hue indicators to represent a material.

these are purely tools to create an artwork. whether or not the artist decides to use them to make "realistic" or "stylized" works is really up to them. dont let the context of your textures determine the context of your artwork.

you make a good argument about over defined characters, but shouldn't we feel blessed that the industry is filled with countless types of artstyles and that we have the liberty to choose which is our favourite?

as for the student issue, personally i think a student shouldn't be groomed to fit industry norm, instead they should be trained to learn. that way they can pursue their art in whichever direction they suit.

[jaroldsng]

-Graphics too contrasted and detailed. (Simulation style)
-360 degree view in most games. (Nothing left to imagine)
-Zooming (Breakes the atmosphere)
-Too much fighting (Breaks the atmosphere)
-Exaggerated proportions and sillhouetes (Makes the characters look like toys)
-Too little detail due to limits on faces (Prerendered backgrounds would sovle it)

you bring out alot of great points about quality from a visual and film point. i definitely agree on you there. i hate zooming in movies aswell.

but, please bear in mind that these are computer generated games. it's main goal is to cater to a community that enjoys the interactivity it provides.

i love atmospheric games that immerse me in an alien world, but sometimes i just like being a pale screaming bald guy slaying greek Gods. lol. you feelin me?

[Hermoor]

Yes it's simulation vs storytelling. Right now too many games concentrate on simulating you being a character and almost no game wants to tell a story. A movie isn't a simulation, a book isn't a simulation and a painting isn't a simulation. Neither is beethoven's 9th symphony. I want to see games that give you the chills down your spine. Atmospheric games, I feel you, it is sometimes fun to be a complete bad ass. I found this particulary entertaining in games like ummm call of duty and mass effect 2. Then there is the more traditional type of game the boar game...strategy. There is:

Traditional games (Like chess, rts)
Storytelling games (Like a book)
Simulation games (Like if you were playing as someone)

Right now the simulation games are ruling the market. It needs to be balanced in my opinion. Anyway I'm off.

[mmt]

Dude, you made me LOL.

There must be a lot you don't know about games or even fantasy. Everything you're saying is extremely subjective and honestly, 99.9% of artists you'll encounter here probably won't agree with you on what you think games should be today.

I suggest spending more time on your art to prove your point than ranting about why you don't like other peoples.

[STRIKER]

...super duper subjective,

reading this whole thread lead me to think you dont know enough game terminology.

a lot of stuff you listed you hate, i love lol (opinions)

i feel you picked this career out of a hat or something.

[Shadownami92]

Wait so what's the debate again? Something about games all being uber realistic or the hand painted ones looking lazy and not capturing that great feel from literature and old movies?

I find tons of games that have that feeling when it comes to feeling immersed into the world it takes place in and you also have to remember that the term art is extremely subjective and all depends on people's tastes.

I find Phantasy Star Online to be amazing and captures a feeling of immersion into the game world. Each level has that spot where you could sit back and not just think of the fights in the game but also the nature around you.

While it's less serious I find Ratchet and Clank does a decent job at the storytelling it tries to do and an amazing job at creating a believable but unrealistic world to play through. That and the actual game assets do a good job and not exactly being hand painty and not being realistic/slapping random photo ref textures onto things.

There is a ton of other examples of games that do a good job with spec and normal maps that don't exactly look realistic or even try to look completely realistic. And that's exactly what the creators wanted to go for, and many times they use that look to create a more immersive and fitting world and story for the feeling they want to convey to the player.

But overall I'm not even sure what this thread is even about.

In some places it sounds like you prefer fantasy, but in other parts of your post you sound like you want something realistic.

But what is it you really want? Do you want something attempting to match the real world exactly or do you want something that isn't real but appears real?

And I think you have your lingo a little mixed up. Your "simulation games" sound like your talking about games where you play the role of a character, and those pretty much tell a story...99.9% of the time.

Since these "simulation" games already are telling stories (and some games do a pretty darn good job at it too) I don't see how you want more balance.

If you have too much story and not enough gameplay things can get a little annoying fast. One example is lots of people's reactions to games like Metal Gear Solid 4.

So yeah to me it kinda sounds like you don't exactly know what you really want.